Forerunners of Kiev 1947
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Topic
Topic author: Jacques M.
Posted on: 20100728091130
Hello,
First, sorry for my long silence: my computer broke down two months ago and as I am stupid, I had not made copies. So I have lost all my datas...
I received lately two interesting Contaxes. Of course,I would not speak of them if they were not in close relationship with Kievs. [:)]
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872010_005.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872010_005.JPGOn the right: a Contax II of the last batch, n° O.64166 with a 1,5/5cm Sonnar T coated. Made before Dresden was bombed in february 1945. The remaining camera bodies and spare parts were sent to Kiev and they were used as production training. The first "Kiev 1947" were made with these parts, at least those with script re-engraved front plate (at the reverse of the front plate, the stroke of the "t" is lower than on the Contax Jena).
On the left, an early 1947 Contax Jena n° 11826, certainly with the original lens. History says that the Soviet forces asked for three production lines, that the Contax Jena and some Kiev 1947 (those with the "block" inscription??)were produced and that these lines were shipped to Kiev with some German engineers. No production in Ukraine before 1948, as it seems.
Unhappily, it's almost impossible to get a Kiev 1947. If not, I would have made close comparisons with these two ones...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Replies
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20100728152306
Jacques,
congrats to the two Contaxes. They are very nice. I have had one Contax II with serial O 64864. Unfortunately I have sold it away some years ago :-(
Please take a closer look to the lens on it, maybe there is a very thin engraved "MF" with another serial number on it. On my lens it was engraved and I have found out that this were really rare lenses for "Marine Flieger" examples (cameras for the german marine in that time). The lens on my camera was only a dozend numbers away from the camera and lens that was on the Bismarck!
Sometimes I think it was a bad idea to sell it away but on the other side I don't want to have cameras and lenses that were specially made for german Nazi troups that time... Don't know why, maybe because I am a german guy ;-)
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Michel
Replied on: 20100729030715
Hi Jacques,
Congratulations for these two nice finds.
Happy guy…
"Putain, la chance!"
Sorry[:I][:I][:I]
Amitiés.
Michel
Reply author: Messsucher
Replied on: 20100730060242
Hi Jacques, sorry for your hd-crash and congrats for the find from me too!
Slightly off:
Ulrich: you do not have to feel that way! I am sorry if it is a crude example: it is not a Zyklon B can... Despite the dark side of the era the (technical) developments cannot be forgotten. The medical experiments - yes, inhuman - saved lives already in the Korean war, and we still "profit" from them, even if we are not aware of that... We sent people to the Moon, fly with jetplanes.
And BTW, we are happy if we get a nice NKVD-Fed! NKVD? Yeah... See?
(Sorry for thread stealing, and being off!)
ON
Reply author: okynek
Replied on: 20100730075658
I can relay to your filling Ulrich. While I agree in some way with Sandor about technical and economical development what triggered by WWII (actually by any war) the human and moral sacrifice is to huge. My grandmother was killed by Nazi in Kiev, my grandfather was killed by KGB year before her.
I do not have any KGB cameras in my collection.... Just now I starting to understand why, never think about this before.... Do not fill right to keep instruments what may be responsible to somebody suffering....
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20100731044334
Hello,
No "MF" on my lens. Perhaps it is a pacific one? [:)]
The chrome on the camera is much rougher than on prewar ones.
Did you notice the official serial of the lens you speak of, Ulrich?
I think mine is the right one, even if it was probably made a year before: not surprising in those times...
About the other question, I consider that these cameras are only
strong witnesses of our common history. But it's only my opinion...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20100803092332
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20100803093134
Another picture.
The ring under the selftimer is black painted on the Contax Jena. It seems it's the only Contax with such a ring: all the other ones have a chromed one, like the 1945 Contax. All my Kievs have chromed rings too.
It seems you have a black ring on your 1948 Kiev, Michel?
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/382010_005.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/382010_005.JPGDo we find these same differences between the "script" and the "block" 1947 Kievs? THAT is the question! [:)]
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20100805112908
Reply author: Michel
Replied on: 20100805123643
Hi Jacques,
Here we are.
About my KIEV 48 1104 :
the ring under the selftimer is black,
the rewind button is the same as on your Contax 45,
the tripod socket is the same
and the arrow on the rewind button has feathers and "extension".
Did I answer your questions ?
Yes, Kiev 47 seems to be a rarity (maybe some sellers have some of them in a safe, waiting the price to increase ??) [:(]
And, as you know, there are two variants of Kiev 47 (two different engravings…)
Sincerly and amitiés,
Michel.
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20100805123952
I know someone who has 1947 Kiev, I can ask him to send me pictures or maybe he can post them himself if he's reading this [;)] [:D].
Thanks for these Jacques, this makes a great reference material!
Cheers,
Vlad
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20100805141248
Jacques,
the chrome was much rougher on my O numbered Contax too. And the engraving of the serial number looked clumsy.
My lens had serial number 2683369, so it matches to yours.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20100806082315
Hello,
Thanks for your confirmation, Ulrich. The rough chrome can be interesting to distinguish 1947 Kievs made from Dresden parts.
Very interested by what you say about your 1948 Kiev, Michel. So, it would be a "pure" Dresden one, except for that ring... In 1948, parts coming from anywhere were probably mixed in boxes or so, and were kept in no order.
If I understand well:
- we have 1947 Kiev, with script inscription, only made with Dresden parts. Alexei Nikitin's one (in the wiki) seems to be one of them.
- we have 1947 Kievs, with block inscription, made in Jena besides the Contax Jena on one of the three production lines. They have all the features of the Contax Jena.
- we have the same ones after the three production lines were sent to Ukraine,
- the last ones, perhaps as soon as 1947 made with what was available.
Another special detail is intersting: it concerns the distance wheel. The groove is the rule for all the Contaxes II, including the Jena.
But it's not always present on Kievs 1947: Alexei's one has not. And even on later Kievs, it's a real mess.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/682010_001.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/682010_001.JPGHere are my two 1950 Kievs on this picture: the # 503737 on the left (with groove) and the # 506446 without.
One can guess that there was a lack of these distance wheel as early as 1947 and that the factory made a special machine tool before receiving the production lines. It would explain these wheels without groove which only belong to Kievs.
Well, that's all I know for the moment.
For those who are interested, two fascinating articles written by specialists:
- Kiev Rangefinders, by Peter Hennig
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/zconrfKiev.htm- After Dresden: the migration of the Contax to Jena and Kiev (Larry Gubas)
http://www.zeisshistorica.org/sample.htmlAmitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Michel
Replied on: 20100806095302
Jacques,
My K48 <u>has</u> the groove on the distance wheel.
(BTW when you say "it is a real mess" do you mean "c'est le bordel"??)[:D][:D]
Amitiés,
Michel.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20100806141139
Michel,
I had noticed that your 1948 Kiev has this groove on the distance wheel. It has also a black rim under the selftimer: it's the only detail coming from the Jena Contaxes.
About your translation, it is absolutely perfect! [:D]
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20100806145355
Reply author: stephanvdz
Replied on: 20100828081114
to Jacques...
I told you contax could be addictive... too
Your O series is very nice (what is the number of the T sonnar ?)
Stephan
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20100829141106
Stephan,
You are right about Kiev/Contax addiction, seeing too that the two last Fed 1 I don't have cannot be reached...[:(]
The number of the T Sonnar is 2789632 (1,5/5cm)
But I found too a later T coated 2/5cm sonnar serial # 2935976. How can it be a Sonnar, not a ZK with such a serial number? The seller told me it was mounted on a camera, but unhappily he doesn't remember which one.
And what is the exact history of these Sonnar/ZK lenses in the 1945/1947 years?
Surely you can help?
Amitiés; Jacques.
Reply author: AidasCams
Replied on: 20100908022413
Hi Jacques!
I'm studying a wonderful Minoru Sasaki book about early Kievs right now, so thanks a lot for your great review!
Best Regards,
Aidas
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20100908075514
Hi Aidas!
Probably the best book... I don't have it.
Don't hesitate to correct my hypothesis if they are wrong! [:)]
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110211073830
Received today my second Jena Contax. From the last batch, it's a very rare camera: only 100 were made.
Nobody exactly knows when this batch was made: one speaks of somewhere between 1951 and 1956.
Nor why: at that date, the use of the name "Contax" was forbidden behind the iron curtain. And the Kievs II and III were in production since a long time...
And about the question "where", I even wonder if they were not made in Ukraine... After all, some of these late Jena Contax have a front plate engraved with the name Kiev!!
So it's most interesting to compare this scarce camera with Kievs II of the same years.
I will post pictures as soon as possible. For the moment, I can say there are only some light differences with my 1948 one, except for the lens (a rare postwar CZJ 1,5/5cm) and the back part. It weighs 175g, compared to my 1948's one: 119g. These cameras with heavy back parts are still rarer than with light ones...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110211084000
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110212100800
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110212105314
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110212115843
So, it seems there were no real borders for late Jena Contaxes and Kievs of the same years. The two factories were both behind the Iron Curtain: so all that is probably a question of evolution, perhaps even for the two cameras together, more or less at the same time.
Anyway, the last part of this last batch contains several Jena Contaxes with the Kiev logo on the front. Perhaps my # 30536 Jena Contax has "Kiev" on the back of the front?[;)]
Eager to have your comments. I wish you have some interesting Kievs to compare with these ones...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110225045345
Hello!
No comment? [:(]
I had forgotten something interesting (for me!).
On my two Jena Contaxes, the rangefinder/viewfinder is grey on grey. To compare with orange-pink on green for all my other Contax and Kiev cameras.
It seems a typical feature of Jena Contaxes: it is even used to recognize the forgeries.
So, it could be useful to know the colour on very early Kievs...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20110225183506
Jacques, it's very fascinating and detailed research, I've been following it closely, I bow to your attention to detail, thank you very much for posting this!
In fact it does seem that both cameras are very closely related if not exactly the same considering mostly German parts were used in the early Kiev production. Apart from screws they look identical [:)].
I wonder at which point they started to deviate. I will compare these pictures to my 1952 Kiev and I will also compare my '52 to the '49 that I have. My guess is they started running out of German part sometime close to 1952 maybe? What do you think?
Cheers,
Vlad
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110227094003
Thanks for your friendly answer, Vlad.
For the moment, I don't know if somebody is able to answer your question: it would be necessary to list the known 1947-50 Kiev, to examine them closely, and to compare with different batches of Jena Contaxes!
It seems that there is a great variability for the early Kievs. Perhaps because Dresden, Jena and home made (=Arsenal) parts were mixed. On the other hand, I don't understand why the Jena Contaxes seem to be "pure": my 1951-56 one, at this date, should be really the twin brother of a Kiev.
Your guessing of 1952 is probably not bad. Up to 1951 and possibly 1952, Kievs III could have Jupiter with Sonnar lenses, and DIN meters (rather than GOST). So why not 1952? Too, it would be interesting to know if the machine tools shipped from Germany in 1947 were always working five years later... Probably Arsenal had made other ones (or modified the German ones) with some improving details, for example to produce more...
Some last pictures in a while about the leather bags of my two Jena Contaxes. [:p]
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110301122001
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110301140336
Reply author: Michel
Replied on: 20110304120613
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20110304183303
Jacques, I don't know if it helps, I've never seen such leather cases on Kievs..
I will try to take some comparison pictures of my 2 Kievs this weekend.
Vlad
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20110306165534
As promised here is my comparison of Kiev 49 vs 52
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0562.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0562.JPGThe top cover of the '49 Kiev has more rounded stamped edges than '52, that one is a lot more defined
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0563.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0563.JPGYou can see edge difference more on this image, '49 is on the right, '52 on the left
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0564.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0564.JPGRewind knobs: '49 on the right, 52 on the left. Arrows are different and the '49 has 4 rows of diamonds on the side of the knob, vs 3 rows on '52. Also the inner knob is of more diameter on '52
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0565.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0565.JPG'49 on top, '52 on the bottom: The bottoms of these cameras show the most difference. While '49 is very fine machined, has more concentric circles around the locks and the tripod socket mount, the '52 seems a lot more simplified in that regard. You can tell that '49 is still German parts here while '52 is already streamlined Soviet design.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0566.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0566.JPGMore detail on the quality of machining around the locks, '49 is on the right
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0567.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0567.JPGMore detail on the tripod socket. '49 is on the right, '52 on the left
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0568.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0568.JPGFrame counter dial gears are also different, with '49 having a more coarse gear teeth. '49 is on the right.
Cheers,
Vlad
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110309101649
Ah! I feel better![:D]
Thanks to you, Michel and Vlad!
Your pictures are very interesting. Vlad, your 1952 Kiev seems to be a "simplified" version, compared to the 1948 (Michel's), 1949 (yours) and 1950 (mine) ones.
As for your 1948 one, Michel, it is a "pure" Dresden one, except for the black rim under the selftimer which is a Jena detail. I had not noticed the difference about the "3": I will use it later (I am preparing the list of differences between Dresden and Jena Contaxes)
Alexei Nikitin (thanks to him!) sends me a mail in which he explains a part of the story. For him, the Dresden production lines were not completely destroyed and could have been repaired. And as the railway gauge was not the same in USSR (larger than in Europe), the trains had to stop a long time before being discharged and the contents sent to Ukraine... It would explain why the Jena material arrived more or less at the same time in Kiev. And why Dresden and Jena parts are mixed on early Kievs.
Thanks once more for the pictures which show perfectly the evolution of the camera...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110309113446
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110612104518
Hello,
Here are the external differences between prewar or wartime Contaxes and the Jena Contaxes.
If it can help some colleagues to identify better their 1947-49 Kiev, specially about their origins: does mine come from Dresden parts or from Jena?... [:)]
On the cover of Jena Contaxes:
1- View counter: "3" with round top, flat on prewar or wartime Contaxes. Idem for the distance scale (front part).
2- Rewind knob: arrow without central extension.
3- Rewind knob: central screw: 6mm (5mm on other ones)
4- Accessory shoe: square shape.
5- Accessory shoe: logo "Carl Zeiss Jena".
6- Rangefinder: grey/grey rather than green/yellow.
On the front:
7- Selftimer: black painted rim under selftimer.
8- Contax engraving different. Clearly visible: distances between C/o and n/x are more important.
Rear part:
9- No logo.
Back part:
10- Accessory shoe: number of circles more important.
11- Accessory shoe: tripod with moulded lines on the two parts,
12- Release button: with concentric circles.
It is interesting to add that Jena Contaxes may have slightly different front engravings, concerning the exact shape of the O, for example (less or more flat). And the rear/back part is heavier on some rare Jena Contaxes (c.175g instead c.115g). Last: a flash sync on the cover (last batch only).
Very probably, there are other differences I missed! Please, don't hesitate to add your remarks.
For the differences between early Kievs, don't miss the very interesting article on Luiz's site ! (Written by Claudio Asquini).
http://www.novacon.com.br/asquini1/kiev1.htmAmitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20110719215656
Jacques, as I've been following this thread, and my understanding is that it seems like most Kievs do come from Jena Contaxes, right? The Dresden Contax details seem to different from the Kievs that I've seen. Do you have an example of a Kiev with Dresden parts? Or at least one that you suspect is Dresden parts?
Cheers,
Vlad
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20110720065044
Hi Vlad,
Here is how I figure all that.
1- Contax and Kiev prototypes are made in Jena. They have two serial numbers: the Zeiss and Kiev ones, and the Carl Zeiss Jena logo. All that on the shoe. On the front, the Contax or the Kiev inscription. Of course, absolutely no difference between these Kievs and Contaxes as they were all made together from machine tools delivered from the German to the Russians.
2- At the same time, Dresden parts are sent to Kiev. The production first begins with these only parts. And little by little, some Jena parts are sent to Kiev. It explains why the 1947 Kievs are almost "pure" Dresden cameras.
3- The Jena machine tools arrive at Kiev. The pieces are mixed Jena/Dresden (1948).
4- Then, little by little, original Dresden parts are missing: cameras look like Jena's, except for some detail.
5- Machine tools are modified to increase the production. Kievs are simplified (from c. 1951).
So, you are right for the most important part, Vlad.
But I wonder why one finds the square accessory shoe (Jena part) only on the prototypes and on all the Jena Contaxes, but on no Kiev, whatever its date be... Another mystery...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20110720183632
hmm, this is excellent research, Jacques! A great timeline for the evolution of the camera! Thank you!
regarding the shoe, it's possible they didn't have any for production on Arsenal so they only used them for prototypes..
Cheers,
Vlad
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20111002024209
Now that I own a Jena Contax too I can confirm to all points that Jacques listed. It's a really interesting camera. Here are some pictures:
The feather on the selftimer release and the black painted ring under the selftimer lever:
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/cj01.jpg
The shoe with the number and the logo. An interesting detail on the film reminder disk, the digits are engraved a bit more to the inner part of it. And no flat "3":
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/cj02.jpg
This seems to be really interesting, the shutter has no number engraved. On my Kiev II from 1949 there is a hand engraved number on it. Maybe the shutters are from the same factory and the ones for the Kievs were engraved by hand to distinguish them from the ones for the Jena Contax?
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/cj03.jpg
That's funny, there are parts made of cardboard to shield the rangefinder prism from light (the brown/black part on left-top of the picture). It just felt out and I wondered first where I have to reinstall it...:
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/cj04.jpg
And the result after reassembling:
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/cj05.jpg
Now it's a real beauty, when it arrives here the chrome on the top and front mask was a bit yellow tinted, then I found out that was nicotine (it stinks during removing it...)! So it seems that the camera was sitting the most time on a shelf in the household of a heavy smoker. That was the main reason why I disassembled the chrome parts carefully.
By the way, the lens is a rigid Sonnar in an aluminium housing. Like the Zorki lens on my Kiev II from 1949.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20111002032329
Thanks a lot for your pictures !
Very interested by the details: I don't dare to open my Jena Contaxes...
So, I am no more the only one to be crazy with these cameras...[:D]
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20111002044510
Jacques,
no, you are not :-) With the knowledge of the history the Kiev/Contax is the most interesting camera to collect. And the Jena Contax seems to be the rarest german rangefinder build by Zeiss.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20111006103903
Hi Ulrich,
There is something I don't really understand in the chronology about the Jena Contax.
From your articles (the Conkies), I understand that:
1- the production lines are first made and tested,
2- the first 1947 Jena Contax and Kiev Contax are made,
3- the three production lines are dismounted and sent to Kiev.
OK. But with what were the following Jena Contaxes made? From spare parts, originally made in 1946-47 and used when necessary to mount the other series?
What was the exact date of the sending to Kiev?
Sorry: my German is non-existent...[:(]
Merci. Jacques.
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20111006142544
Jacques,
that's apoint that I am wondering about too. Unfortunately the documents end in late 1947. They say that the Saalfeld production line was shipped to Kiev. The document says also that in the late Jena Contaxes there can be found front masks that were made of reengraved Kiev plates. So maybe the late Jena Contaxes were made in Kiev for special purposes? As I know the east germans have no permission to make ragnefinders under the name Contax in that time when e.g. your late Jena Contax was built.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20111007081439
Thanks, Ulrich.
There are probably two possibilities:
- on the three production lines, two only are shipped to Kiev. The remaining one is used to make Jena Contaxes when necessary. That was the original promise of the USSR authorities. But it seems that this promise was not hold and all was sent to Kiev.
Hence my second supposition.
- In 1946-47, the three production lines are made and immediately tested. Some rare early Jena Contaxes and Kiev Contaxes (those with the two numberings) are mounted. Besides, some 2000 parts are made and set apart. They will serve to mount the other series, from 1948.
About that, we can suppose that most of these Jena Contaxes were offered as gifts, rather than sold: the greatest number of these cameras seem unused, contrarily to the contemporaneous Kievs.
Zeiss Opton (West Germany) obtained the legal rights on "Contax" only in 1954. But the Kievs could continue, of course.
Concerning these curious late Jena Kiev, they are all in the last range of 100 cameras, serial number 30501-30600. Only 6 are actually known. I have absolutely no detail about them. Always gifts for Russians of rank, perhaps?
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20120213093521
Reply author: Michel
Replied on: 20120213102246
Hi Jacques,
Absolutely splendid camera !
Lucky guy…
Mine is not so beautiful, and the lens is… a Jupiter #54xxx [:(][:(]
Sincerly,et à bientôt,
Michel
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20120213102319
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20120213102859
Merci Michel!
But I think that your body is most interesting with the flat top on "3" (Dresden side), the black ring under the selftimer (Jena specification)... All a world in a camera!
Amitiés.
Reply author: kievan81
Replied on: 20130512221526
Reply author: kievan81
Replied on: 20130513043047
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20180709090620
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20180709090826
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20180710030446
Just seen Michels post from Mar 04 2011 - I have Kiev 481100 in my collection, just 4 behind his camera. Mine also has 1100 engraved into the alloy shutter assembly.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20200304081447
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20200304081912
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20210708084021
Reply author: Elmar Lang
Replied on: 20210831045718
Hello,
just to add a little further detail to this interesting thread, I would like to add the data of my "Jena" Contax:
S.N.: 27893, also present on the inner surface of the "heavy" type, sheet-brass back; "square" accessory shoe.
Lens: Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 1:2 5cm. "red T" s.n. 3051152.
All the best,
Enzo (E.L.)
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20210901104300
Thanks, Enzo. I will add it in my listing.
For those who would be interested by that listing (around 240 Jena Contaxes), just pm. Unless Vlad thinks it could be interesting in our wiki?
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Elmar Lang
Replied on: 20210903083244
Dear Jacques,
I think that your listing would be most invaluable to those involved in the study and research about the evolution from the Contax to the Kiev lines.
Congratulations for your research effort,
Enzo
Reply author: xatnoc
Replied on: 20230103231636
Hello everyone,
I have a concern that the ivory Contax 27972 shown in this thread above represents an authentic ivory camera. This notion is for the simple reason that the camera looks too good, the paint looks too fresh. I have followed the fate of this camera: first it was sold at a German Auction house, "Cornwall" in Cologne in auction 38, then it appeared on eBay again in 2016 where it was sold to the next owner. In my data, I also find a comment of a previous ivory Contax expert who expressed the same concern as me: looks too good. All true ivory Contax show some wear and the color starts to disintegrate. Using this criteria, any fake has a difficult position, as paint cannot be easily converted to paint that has already experienced >70 years. Similar situation as in paintings.......
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230104073159
Hello,
When I began collecting these cameras, I was much surprised by their general condition: many of them seem almost new. Visibly, not or only few used: gifts, as it is often said?
The paint of the ivory ones is of course more fragile than the chrome of the regular ones. And this 27972 seems to have all the external details of the Jena Contaxes. So, original, repaint, or even fake?
That said, you know these cameras much better than me, Stefan!
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: xatnoc
Replied on: 20230104103641
Dear Jacques,
make some quick tests:
1) remove the back: does it feel heavy (a) or light (b)?
2) look through the finder: is the distance meter silver (a) or golden (b) ?
3) remove one of the 4 screws that fix the film plate (preferably one at the bottom: is the head of the screw cylindric (i.e. massive) (a) or more filigree (b) ?
if all 3 answers are (a), then it is likely a true ivory Contax.....
Good luck and report back, thanks!
best
Stefan
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230104110356
Hi Stefan,
I don't own any ivory: it's out of my possibilities![:)]
But I know these tests. My "regular" Jena Contaxes are OK, except for the first ones concerning the weight of the back. Of course...
Amitiés.
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20230104153742
Hi Stefan,
I think you are right. According to the data I have the Ivory 27972 is a fake camera.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230105033654
Hem...[:I]
I have just verified my own listing and there is no doubt. The 27972 is a fake. I should have checked earlier.
Thanks, Stefan and Ulrich!
Amitiés.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230105113044
Reply author: xatnoc
Replied on: 20230106050913
regarding the ivory 27972 Contax in the thread above: the leather case is most likely a true one..........
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230106054716
... and the similarities between the leather case and the leatherette are astonishing.
Reply author: Fotohuis
Replied on: 20230106065655
Well I am just back from <i>Ukraine</i> last month and I took a complete Kiev-4AM set with a beam splitter, 50mm J-8M, a 35mm J-12 and a 85mm J-9. Do not ask me what I was doing there, it had something to do with a Leopard (1) tank training.
It is a great camera set and I am very happy with it. For the rest I have seen a lot of misery and too many funerals.
I also took my Leica M7 set with me (and back). So I made some photos on Kodak 5222 XX film and on the way back to the Netherlands I have visited a former Ukrainian photo model living in Düsseldorf (Germany) now. It was an emotional visit because just before the war she had a cancer diagnose, whomp removed and bleeding on the way to Germany. Fortunately a little bit recovered but we talked a lot and I made a photo shoot with her. I am sure she could use the extra money for it.
Robert
"De enige beperking in je fotografie ben je zelf"
http://gallery.fotohuisrovo.nl/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/fotohuisrovo/Reply author: Fotohuis
Replied on: 20230106070525
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230321094051
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230321094843
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230321100401
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230321120633
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20230325120116
Reply author: Elmar Lang
Replied on: 20230328025916
Hello,
just to add some further data, before finding the time to take proper pictures of the piece, I can say that my "Jena" Contax is body nr. 27893 (same number, engraved to the inside of the back, "heavy" sheet-brass type); the lens mounted on it, is a Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar 50/2 "red T", nr. 3051152, from a batch of 1500 pieces, whose production was set in the summer of 1947.
All the best,
Enzo
Reply author: treehorn
Replied on: 20231208102322
Reply author: treehorn
Replied on: 20231208103315
And there was a very interesting Jena-Kiev (or Kiev-Jena) at Wetzlar Camera Auction #5 in October 2023, Lot 228:
http://s759420438.online.de/A5/mobile/index.htmlYou can find it at liveauctioneers (login required):
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/price-result/arsenal-kiev-ii-carl-zeiss-jena-contax-ii/It was sold for about 14.000 Euro. From the auction text:
"Probably the rarest version of the Kiev II, still produced by Carl Zeiss Jena. Two serial numbers, 5913 and 470038, as well as the "Carl Zeiss Jena"-logo engraved on the accessory shoe. The number 16 stamped inside twice. The back door without engraving of a serial number. The name ring of the later, so-called "no name" lens, without any engraving of a model or manufacturer designation, just engraved with "Jena 1:2 f=50 mm Nr. 3501248". Very few of these cameras are known and have not been shown in any specialist literature to date. The total production is unlikely to have exceeded 50 pieces."
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20231209095854
Congratulations for your Jena Contax "black face". Rare cameras! Probably around fifty in the 28xxx range, and perhaps some others on the 305xx range, by my data...
Thanks for the photos of your #28073. The 2/50mm Sonnar (not the usual 5cm) is interesting too. Your "black face" is not the only late Jena Contax to have received such a Sonnar in millimeters (still by my data).
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20231210143830
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20231211030744
Very interesting markings! Thanks, Ulrich!
I had seen some on my own cameras, but payed no attention. Stupid of me.
Are there other ones?
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20231211113137
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20231211162932
Many thanks fot this very complete explanation, Ulrich!
And I had forgotten that famous photo with the "Jenaers"...[:I]
Really, I should check my own Jena Contaxes and early Kievs...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: treehorn
Replied on: 20231211175732
Thanks Ulrich and Jacques. I hope I can find some time at the next weekend to open the camera. I also have a earlier Jena Contax (chrome) with the number 15325. According to Bernd Otto, that camera should date from 1949 and the cameras with numbers 27801-28100 from 1950.
The information about the early Kiev-II export version was new to me. I'm still looking for one of these, there were a few on ebay recently and now I'm annoyed that I didn't get one.
Best
Andreas
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20231212030650
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20231212163456
Excellent historic data Ulrich Great research
Regards
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20240131150820
Luiz and treehorn, thanks. The history of the Kiev is very interesting. And I think that there are more secrets that we don't know until now :-)
Jacques, the N looks like mine. And typically there are the two scratced lines under and above the digits of the serial number. Seems to be made from the same person.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: cedricfan
Replied on: 20240131233409
I would never have guessed, that there has been so small amount of people making the actual cameras from pieces, this is far from serial production.
Best regards,
Juhani
Reply author: treehorn
Replied on: 20240216012202
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20240308172913
Treehorn,
nice that you were able to open it. I have never seen a scratched in "III" on any Kiev. Really interesting. Maybe this could be an original Contax shutter?
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20241114100253
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20241117172625
Jacques,
nice find. I'm curious to see if there are also engravings of the fitters inside. You remember the "C/A" in my Jena Contax.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.deReply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20241118082236
I have a look inside as soon as I can.
Thanks, Ulrich.
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20241120093523
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20241120093850
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20241120093948
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20250122162529
Steve,
interesting, once again the "N" and the square incised numbers. It was probably always carved by the same person.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de
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