Forerunners of Kiev 1947

Hello,

First, sorry for my long silence: my computer broke down two months ago and as I am stupid, I had not made copies. So I have lost all my datas...
I received lately two interesting Contaxes. Of course,I would not speak of them if they were not in close relationship with Kievs.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872010_005.JPG

On the right: a Contax II of the last batch, n° O.64166 with a 1,5/5cm Sonnar T coated. Made before Dresden was bombed in february 1945. The remaining camera bodies and spare parts were sent to Kiev and they were used as production training. The first "Kiev 1947" were made with these parts, at least those with script re-engraved front plate (at the reverse of the front plate, the stroke of the "t" is lower than on the Contax Jena).

On the left, an early 1947 Contax Jena n° 11826, certainly with the original lens. History says that the Soviet forces asked for three production lines, that the Contax Jena and some Kiev 1947 (those with the "block" inscription??)were produced and that these lines were shipped to Kiev with some German engineers. No production in Ukraine before 1948, as it seems.

Unhappily, it's almost impossible to get a Kiev 1947. If not, I would have made close comparisons with these two ones...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

congrats to the two Contaxes. They are very nice. I have had one Contax II with serial O 64864. Unfortunately I have sold it away some years ago :-(

Please take a closer look to the lens on it, maybe there is a very thin engraved "MF" with another serial number on it. On my lens it was engraved and I have found out that this were really rare lenses for "Marine Flieger" examples (cameras for the german marine in that time). The lens on my camera was only a dozend numbers away from the camera and lens that was on the Bismarck!

Sometimes I think it was a bad idea to sell it away but on the other side I don't want to have cameras and lenses that were specially made for german Nazi troups that time... Don't know why, maybe because I am a german guy ;-)

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Jacques,

Congratulations for these two nice finds.
Happy guy…

"Putain, la chance!"
Sorry

Amitiйs.
Michel

Hi Jacques, sorry for your hd-crash and congrats for the find from me too!

Slightly off:

Ulrich: you do not have to feel that way! I am sorry if it is a crude example: it is not a Zyklon B can... Despite the dark side of the era the (technical) developments cannot be forgotten. The medical experiments - yes, inhuman - saved lives already in the Korean war, and we still "profit" from them, even if we are not aware of that... We sent people to the Moon, fly with jetplanes.

And BTW, we are happy if we get a nice NKVD-Fed! NKVD? Yeah... See?

(Sorry for thread stealing, and being off!)

ON

I can relay to your filling Ulrich. While I agree in some way with Sandor about technical and economical development what triggered by WWII (actually by any war) the human and moral sacrifice is to huge. My grandmother was killed by Nazi in Kiev, my grandfather was killed by KGB year before her.
I do not have any KGB cameras in my collection.... Just now I starting to understand why, never think about this before.... Do not fill right to keep instruments what may be responsible to somebody suffering....

Hello,

No "MF" on my lens. Perhaps it is a pacific one?
The chrome on the camera is much rougher than on prewar ones.
Did you notice the official serial of the lens you speak of, Ulrich?
I think mine is the right one, even if it was probably made a year before: not surprising in those times...

About the other question, I consider that these cameras are only
strong witnesses of our common history. But it's only my opinion...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello,

Here are some different details between the Contax 1945 and the Contax Jena 1947. To compare with early Kievs...


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/382010_001.JPG



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/382010_002.JPG

On these two pictures, the Contax 1945 is on the left, the Jena 1947 on the right (tripod shoe missing on the '45).

Some comments, comparisons with early Kievs?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Another picture.
The ring under the selftimer is black painted on the Contax Jena. It seems it's the only Contax with such a ring: all the other ones have a chromed one, like the 1945 Contax. All my Kievs have chromed rings too.

It seems you have a black ring on your 1948 Kiev, Michel?


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/382010_005.JPG

Do we find these same differences between the "script" and the "block" 1947 Kievs? THAT is the question!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

No comment?
Well, two last pictures. I don't want to tire anybody!


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/582010_002.JPG

This pictures shows the rewind button of my Desden 1945 Contax II. But it could be the one of any Contax I, II or III. Since 1932, the arrow has this curious extension which should prevent from putting it on the rope of a bow... Funny, no?



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/582010_001.JPG

Now, the same button on my 1947 Contax Jena. No extension, that time. And the Contax Jena is the only II or III to lack that part.

Hence a possible question: are there such differences on the 1947 Kievs? It should be an indication about their origin... And what about your 1948 Kiev, Michel?

Now, I shut up!

Amitiйs. Jacques;

Hi Jacques,

Here we are.
About my KIEV 48 1104 :
the ring under the selftimer is black,
the rewind button is the same as on your Contax 45,
the tripod socket is the same
and the arrow on the rewind button has feathers and "extension".

Did I answer your questions ?

Yes, Kiev 47 seems to be a rarity (maybe some sellers have some of them in a safe, waiting the price to increase ??)
And, as you know, there are two variants of Kiev 47 (two different engravings…)

Sincerly and amitiйs,
Michel.

I know someone who has 1947 Kiev, I can ask him to send me pictures or maybe he can post them himself if he's reading this .

Thanks for these Jacques, this makes a great reference material!

Cheers,
Vlad

Jacques,

the chrome was much rougher on my O numbered Contax too. And the engraving of the serial number looked clumsy.

My lens had serial number 2683369, so it matches to yours.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hello,

Thanks for your confirmation, Ulrich. The rough chrome can be interesting to distinguish 1947 Kievs made from Dresden parts.

Very interested by what you say about your 1948 Kiev, Michel. So, it would be a "pure" Dresden one, except for that ring... In 1948, parts coming from anywhere were probably mixed in boxes or so, and were kept in no order.

If I understand well:
- we have 1947 Kiev, with script inscription, only made with Dresden parts. Alexei Nikitin's one (in the wiki) seems to be one of them.
- we have 1947 Kievs, with block inscription, made in Jena besides the Contax Jena on one of the three production lines. They have all the features of the Contax Jena.
- we have the same ones after the three production lines were sent to Ukraine,
- the last ones, perhaps as soon as 1947 made with what was available.

Another special detail is intersting: it concerns the distance wheel. The groove is the rule for all the Contaxes II, including the Jena.
But it's not always present on Kievs 1947: Alexei's one has not. And even on later Kievs, it's a real mess.




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/682010_001.JPG

Here are my two 1950 Kievs on this picture: the # 503737 on the left (with groove) and the # 506446 without.
One can guess that there was a lack of these distance wheel as early as 1947 and that the factory made a special machine tool before receiving the production lines. It would explain these wheels without groove which only belong to Kievs.

Well, that's all I know for the moment.

For those who are interested, two fascinating articles written by specialists:
- Kiev Rangefinders, by Peter Hennig
http://www3.telus.net/public/rpnchbck/zconrfKiev.htm
- After Dresden: the migration of the Contax to Jena and Kiev (Larry Gubas)
http://www.zeisshistorica.org/sample.html

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

My K48 has the groove on the distance wheel.

(BTW when you say "it is a real mess" do you mean "c'est le bordel"??)

Amitiйs,
Michel.

Michel,
I had noticed that your 1948 Kiev has this groove on the distance wheel. It has also a black rim under the selftimer: it's the only detail coming from the Jena Contaxes.

About your translation, it is absolutely perfect!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

My 1949 Kiev II also has the grooved distance wheel, look here:

http://fotos.cconin.de/kameras/kiev2.htm#kiev49

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

to Jacques...

I told you contax could be addictive... too

Your O series is very nice (what is the number of the T sonnar ?)



Stephan

Stephan,

You are right about Kiev/Contax addiction, seeing too that the two last Fed 1 I don't have cannot be reached...
The number of the T Sonnar is 2789632 (1,5/5cm)

But I found too a later T coated 2/5cm sonnar serial # 2935976. How can it be a Sonnar, not a ZK with such a serial number? The seller told me it was mounted on a camera, but unhappily he doesn't remember which one.
And what is the exact history of these Sonnar/ZK lenses in the 1945/1947 years?

Surely you can help?

Amitiйs; Jacques.

Hi Jacques!

I'm studying a wonderful Minoru Sasaki book about early Kievs right now, so thanks a lot for your great review!

Best Regards,
Aidas

Hi Aidas!
Probably the best book... I don't have it.
Don't hesitate to correct my hypothesis if they are wrong!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Received today my second Jena Contax. From the last batch, it's a very rare camera: only 100 were made.

Nobody exactly knows when this batch was made: one speaks of somewhere between 1951 and 1956.
Nor why: at that date, the use of the name "Contax" was forbidden behind the iron curtain. And the Kievs II and III were in production since a long time...
And about the question "where", I even wonder if they were not made in Ukraine... After all, some of these late Jena Contax have a front plate engraved with the name Kiev!!

So it's most interesting to compare this scarce camera with Kievs II of the same years.

I will post pictures as soon as possible. For the moment, I can say there are only some light differences with my 1948 one, except for the lens (a rare postwar CZJ 1,5/5cm) and the back part. It weighs 175g, compared to my 1948's one: 119g. These cameras with heavy back parts are still rarer than with light ones...

Amitiйs. Jacques.