Forerunners of Kiev 1947

First, some pict. of the Jena Contax alone. The flash sync is a distinctive detail of this batch.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 001.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 003.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1122011_Jena contax 1951 004.JPG

The distance wheel (pict. 3) always have a groove. This one is less deep than on my 1948 Jena Contax.

At the beginning of this topic, I had put some pictures comparing the Jena Contax 1948 and a wartime Contax II made in Dresden.
Now, a comparison between the 1951-56 Jena Contax and the Kiev # 504664. The Kiev is always on the right.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 001.JPG

No real difference on this first picture, except for the distance wheel: no groove on the Kiev. But my earlier Kiev # 503737 has one...


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 002.JPG

A distinctive detail on Jena Contaxes: all have a square shaped shoe. Some early Kievs have it too, probably coming from the same Jena parts. No square shoe on wartime or prewar Dresden Contaxes. The flash synch is a rare feature on Jena Contaxes. DVD says that a 1954 Kiev II preserie had it too. Where was it? On the top or under the finder?


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 004.JPG

Once more, no difference.

On this picture (Kiev always on the right), the release button is the same. More circles on the square part of the shoe for the Jena Contax, which seems to be a distinctive feature. The triangular part too is slightly different: more space between the lines and the rim. And if the back is much more heavier on this Jena Contax (175g against 113g for the Kiev), one cannot see it.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_Jena Contax-Kiev 006.JPG

Last picture. From left to right: 1948 Jena Contax, 1951/56 Jena Contax, 1950 Kiev.
One can see that the rewind button is not the same everywhere: four rows of diamonds on the 1948, only three on the two others. It's interesting to notice that all wartime and prewar Contax II have four rows.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1222011_12 02 001.JPG

So, it seems there were no real borders for late Jena Contaxes and Kievs of the same years. The two factories were both behind the Iron Curtain: so all that is probably a question of evolution, perhaps even for the two cameras together, more or less at the same time.

Anyway, the last part of this last batch contains several Jena Contaxes with the Kiev logo on the front. Perhaps my # 30536 Jena Contax has "Kiev" on the back of the front?

Eager to have your comments. I wish you have some interesting Kievs to compare with these ones...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello!

No comment?

I had forgotten something interesting (for me!).
On my two Jena Contaxes, the rangefinder/viewfinder is grey on grey. To compare with orange-pink on green for all my other Contax and Kiev cameras.

It seems a typical feature of Jena Contaxes: it is even used to recognize the forgeries.
So, it could be useful to know the colour on very early Kievs...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques, it's very fascinating and detailed research, I've been following it closely, I bow to your attention to detail, thank you very much for posting this!

In fact it does seem that both cameras are very closely related if not exactly the same considering mostly German parts were used in the early Kiev production. Apart from screws they look identical .

I wonder at which point they started to deviate. I will compare these pictures to my 1952 Kiev and I will also compare my '52 to the '49 that I have. My guess is they started running out of German part sometime close to 1952 maybe? What do you think?

Cheers,
Vlad

Thanks for your friendly answer, Vlad.
For the moment, I don't know if somebody is able to answer your question: it would be necessary to list the known 1947-50 Kiev, to examine them closely, and to compare with different batches of Jena Contaxes!

It seems that there is a great variability for the early Kievs. Perhaps because Dresden, Jena and home made (=Arsenal) parts were mixed. On the other hand, I don't understand why the Jena Contaxes seem to be "pure": my 1951-56 one, at this date, should be really the twin brother of a Kiev.

Your guessing of 1952 is probably not bad. Up to 1951 and possibly 1952, Kievs III could have Jupiter with Sonnar lenses, and DIN meters (rather than GOST). So why not 1952? Too, it would be interesting to know if the machine tools shipped from Germany in 1947 were always working five years later... Probably Arsenal had made other ones (or modified the German ones) with some improving details, for example to produce more...

Some last pictures in a while about the leather bags of my two Jena Contaxes.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 002.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 001.JPG

The leather bags of my two Jena Contaxes.
The first one (=upper) is the 1948 one, the lower is the 1951-56 one.
The general shape, the sewing and the nose are the same.
Prewar or wartime Contaxes don't have that sort of bag. But they can be seen for early Kievs with noses a bit different.
Some more detailed pictures to come.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/132011_Jena Contax bags 003.JPG

That time, the 1948 is the lower. The stiffener stripes exist only on this one. The grain of the leather is more rough.

The two qualities of leather seem to exist on the 1947 Kiev. But it must be confirmed. See for example this 1947 Kiev case:

http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/arsenal/arsenal.htm

The only difference seems to be the polygonal nose rather than round on Jena Contaxes. I don't know if other early Kievs (1948, 1949) have such cases...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Jacques,
I send you four photos of my 48 1104 KIEV.

Here, you can see the shape of the shoe :


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/432011_K1.JPG



Four rows of diamonds, here :



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/432011_K2.JPG


See the groove on the distance wheel and notice the shape of the cipher "3" on the counter :




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/432011_K3.JPG

And here, see the foot and the rewind knob :


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/432011_K4.JPG


I don't know if this can help, as I have no Jena Contax and Alain is no more here to give details or advice.

Amitiйs,
Michel.

Jacques, I don't know if it helps, I've never seen such leather cases on Kievs..

I will try to take some comparison pictures of my 2 Kievs this weekend.

Vlad

As promised here is my comparison of Kiev 49 vs 52


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0562.JPG
The top cover of the '49 Kiev has more rounded stamped edges than '52, that one is a lot more defined


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0563.JPG
You can see edge difference more on this image, '49 is on the right, '52 on the left



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0564.JPG
Rewind knobs: '49 on the right, 52 on the left. Arrows are different and the '49 has 4 rows of diamonds on the side of the knob, vs 3 rows on '52. Also the inner knob is of more diameter on '52



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0565.JPG
'49 on top, '52 on the bottom: The bottoms of these cameras show the most difference. While '49 is very fine machined, has more concentric circles around the locks and the tripod socket mount, the '52 seems a lot more simplified in that regard. You can tell that '49 is still German parts here while '52 is already streamlined Soviet design.



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0566.JPG
More detail on the quality of machining around the locks, '49 is on the right



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0567.JPG
More detail on the tripod socket. '49 is on the right, '52 on the left



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/632011_IMG_0568.JPG
Frame counter dial gears are also different, with '49 having a more coarse gear teeth. '49 is on the right.

Cheers,
Vlad

Ah! I feel better!
Thanks to you, Michel and Vlad!

Your pictures are very interesting. Vlad, your 1952 Kiev seems to be a "simplified" version, compared to the 1948 (Michel's), 1949 (yours) and 1950 (mine) ones.

As for your 1948 one, Michel, it is a "pure" Dresden one, except for the black rim under the selftimer which is a Jena detail. I had not noticed the difference about the "3": I will use it later (I am preparing the list of differences between Dresden and Jena Contaxes)

Alexei Nikitin (thanks to him!) sends me a mail in which he explains a part of the story. For him, the Dresden production lines were not completely destroyed and could have been repaired. And as the railway gauge was not the same in USSR (larger than in Europe), the trains had to stop a long time before being discharged and the contents sent to Ukraine... It would explain why the Jena material arrived more or less at the same time in Kiev. And why Dresden and Jena parts are mixed on early Kievs.

Thanks once more for the pictures which show perfectly the evolution of the camera...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Here is the leather bag of the Kiev serial # 47386 (DVD picture).
Not very far from my own ones, I think.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/932011_15.jpg

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello,
Here are the external differences between prewar or wartime Contaxes and the Jena Contaxes.
If it can help some colleagues to identify better their 1947-49 Kiev, specially about their origins: does mine come from Dresden parts or from Jena?...

On the cover of Jena Contaxes:
1- View counter: "3" with round top, flat on prewar or wartime Contaxes. Idem for the distance scale (front part).
2- Rewind knob: arrow without central extension.
3- Rewind knob: central screw: 6mm (5mm on other ones)
4- Accessory shoe: square shape.
5- Accessory shoe: logo "Carl Zeiss Jena".
6- Rangefinder: grey/grey rather than green/yellow.

On the front:
7- Selftimer: black painted rim under selftimer.
8- Contax engraving different. Clearly visible: distances between C/o and n/x are more important.

Rear part:
9- No logo.

Back part:
10- Accessory shoe: number of circles more important.
11- Accessory shoe: tripod with moulded lines on the two parts,
12- Release button: with concentric circles.

It is interesting to add that Jena Contaxes may have slightly different front engravings, concerning the exact shape of the O, for example (less or more flat). And the rear/back part is heavier on some rare Jena Contaxes (c.175g instead c.115g). Last: a flash sync on the cover (last batch only).

Very probably, there are other differences I missed! Please, don't hesitate to add your remarks.

For the differences between early Kievs, don't miss the very interesting article on Luiz's site ! (Written by Claudio Asquini).

http://www.novacon.com.br/asquini1/kiev1.htm


Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques, as I've been following this thread, and my understanding is that it seems like most Kievs do come from Jena Contaxes, right? The Dresden Contax details seem to different from the Kievs that I've seen. Do you have an example of a Kiev with Dresden parts? Or at least one that you suspect is Dresden parts?

Cheers,
Vlad

Hi Vlad,
Here is how I figure all that.
1- Contax and Kiev prototypes are made in Jena. They have two serial numbers: the Zeiss and Kiev ones, and the Carl Zeiss Jena logo. All that on the shoe. On the front, the Contax or the Kiev inscription. Of course, absolutely no difference between these Kievs and Contaxes as they were all made together from machine tools delivered from the German to the Russians.
2- At the same time, Dresden parts are sent to Kiev. The production first begins with these only parts. And little by little, some Jena parts are sent to Kiev. It explains why the 1947 Kievs are almost "pure" Dresden cameras.
3- The Jena machine tools arrive at Kiev. The pieces are mixed Jena/Dresden (1948).
4- Then, little by little, original Dresden parts are missing: cameras look like Jena's, except for some detail.
5- Machine tools are modified to increase the production. Kievs are simplified (from c. 1951).

So, you are right for the most important part, Vlad.
But I wonder why one finds the square accessory shoe (Jena part) only on the prototypes and on all the Jena Contaxes, but on no Kiev, whatever its date be... Another mystery...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

hmm, this is excellent research, Jacques! A great timeline for the evolution of the camera! Thank you!

regarding the shoe, it's possible they didn't have any for production on Arsenal so they only used them for prototypes..

Cheers,
Vlad

Now that I own a Jena Contax too I can confirm to all points that Jacques listed. It's a really interesting camera. Here are some pictures:

The feather on the selftimer release and the black painted ring under the selftimer lever:




The shoe with the number and the logo. An interesting detail on the film reminder disk, the digits are engraved a bit more to the inner part of it. And no flat "3":




This seems to be really interesting, the shutter has no number engraved. On my Kiev II from 1949 there is a hand engraved number on it. Maybe the shutters are from the same factory and the ones for the Kievs were engraved by hand to distinguish them from the ones for the Jena Contax?




That's funny, there are parts made of cardboard to shield the rangefinder prism from light (the brown/black part on left-top of the picture). It just felt out and I wondered first where I have to reinstall it...:




And the result after reassembling:




Now it's a real beauty, when it arrives here the chrome on the top and front mask was a bit yellow tinted, then I found out that was nicotine (it stinks during removing it...)! So it seems that the camera was sitting the most time on a shelf in the household of a heavy smoker. That was the main reason why I disassembled the chrome parts carefully.

By the way, the lens is a rigid Sonnar in an aluminium housing. Like the Zorki lens on my Kiev II from 1949.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Thanks a lot for your pictures !
Very interested by the details: I don't dare to open my Jena Contaxes...

So, I am no more the only one to be crazy with these cameras...

Amitiйs. Jacques.