Sonnar lens 58 f1.5
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Topic
Topic author: ricale
Posted on: 20130311082727
On ebay,2 different sellers, a Sonnar(?)lens 58 f1.5 in Leica screw mount is for sale.
Does someone about this kind of lens?
If it's a fake, it's a very strange fake.
Replies
Reply author: Vlad
Replied on: 20130311085431
You think it's a Soviet lens marked as Sonnar? Would you mind posting a picture of a link to the auction here?
Thanks,
Vlad.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130311085722
Hi Vittorio,
As far as I know, nobody exactly knows where and by whom these lenses were made.
Some members of the very serious "Zeiss Society" think they were made after the war, perhaps from Zeiss parts. But it's sure that they don't belong to the official Zeiss production.
No real explanation about the serial numbers (1407xxx)which cannot be related with the other "legal" Sonnars.
I have seen till now some 15 of these lenses, all uncoated.They often have fungus (I wonder why?). The special 1,5/6cm is unknown too by Zeiss specialists.
Jacques.
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130311094735
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130311095214
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130311095956
Reply author: ricale
Replied on: 20130311124039
Thank you
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130318052636
Hello,
Not too convinced by Meopta as the maker of this lens. But why not, after all?
I have just bought one of these lenses (by auction) and something seems interesting. The rear cam has a screw, like on S.H.'s Sonnar, but unlike the other Sonnars seen till now.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1832013_Sonnar 1,5-5,8cm.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1832013_Sonnar 1,5-5,8cm.jpg
This is my 1,5/5,8cm Sonnar.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1832013_832013_DSC_4149_post.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1832013_832013_DSC_4149_post.jpgAnd this is S.H.'s Jena Sonnar.
I will tell you more after receiving the lens. I hope there is not too much fungus...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: S.H.
Replied on: 20130318081414
Well, I saw that too. But the rest of the barrel engravings look russian.
Did not bid on this one because of the fungus.
If you want some more close-up shots of my sonnar, just ask.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130318100023
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130319194621
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130319200002
Jacques
Your lens seems to be of Zeiss manuacture although having no Zeiss name.it should be made by Zeiss people -independently- The 1945 to 1947 years were a conturbated era and Germany lost his identity and Allies had not yet defined their actuation areas Several factories were spoiled by people interted in doing their own business -A similar way suffered Russia in the post Glasnost days
LP
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130320052320
Thanks for your explanations and complements, Luiz!
Prototypes you show on novacon are exciting!
About my lens, the glass could have been made in the thirties: it is uncoated and there was an official test model of 1,5/5,8cm Sonnar, put on a Contax I, marked Carl Zeiss Jena Sonnar (quoted by Kuc in his book, and with a picture), s/n 1459655.
For some reason, this lens was abandoned, perhaps because of the 1,5/5cm. And years later, the remaining glasses could have been re used to make the 1407xxx series: I agree with you about those 1945-47 years... Where and by whom, that's another story...
The two different rangefinder cams (boss vs thread) are strange. I am putting a listing (one more!) about these lenses, including that fact.
All that is only a guess. Perhaps I will be inspired when the lens is here!
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130321142358
Jacques
I bought an aluminum bodied threaded focus Sonnar(no Zeiss marked) Serial 14XXXX lens 5,8cm, together a Triotar 13,5cm, Leica fittings, several years ago which were in the junk box of a friend. I found it unusual at first lance. The 5,8cm lens is uncoated but the glass is slight bluish tinted . Very strange indeed.
Regard
LP
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130321173755
Slight bluish inside: that's the right word for all the lenses belonging to this 147xxxx. series.
For the moment, I have 20 lenses in my data for this series, and 9 in the 1,5/6cm one... What is your serial number, Luiz?
I hope I will learn more when I receive mine!
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130322084648
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130322090024
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130322091002
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130516152600
Two more Sonnars here, always LTM.
First, A 1,5/5cm which seems a cousin of my 1,5/5,8cm. Same 6 slot nut on the rear and an aluminium mount. But this one is coated and it is bigger than the 5,8cm (!).
A picture:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 001.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 001.jpg
The second one is more mysterious. It could be a genuine Carl Zeiss Sonnar, but it has a LTM mount, a strange crossed pattern on two bags and it is heavier than any of the Sonnars I have here (224g). Perhaps a poswar one? A picture again:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 002.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 002.jpg
Now, a third picture. They are both 1,5/50mm lenses, so I am perplex when I see them side by side...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 003.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1652013_Sonnars 1,5-5cm and 1,5-50mm 003.jpg
If you have ideas...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: stephanvdz
Replied on: 20130517044001
concernant le dernier sonnar, celui avec des gravures en diamant, il existe quelques exemplaires avec ce type de gravures et un lettrage tout à fait bizarre (pas la font habituelle)... je possède un 5cm comme cela (photo suit) et j'ai vu sur ebay un 8,5cm comparable. ce sont toutes les deux des optiques T pour LTM. Les montures sont Zeiss, seules les gravures et inscriptions sur le corps sont bizarres.
Stephan
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130517073304
Thanks, Stephane.
About the Sonnar with diamond pattern, I forgot to give the serial number: 1979274. With the engraving "Carl Zeiss" (without Jena), the focal of 50mm (and not 5cm), and the coating, it could be a post-war Sonnar made in the West.
But the mount puzzles me. It's not totally functional: the rear ring (which is screwed on the camera) is too loose so the lens cannot be properly used. As if it were a prototype or a trial not really finished. But do postwar Sonnars, made by the factory, really exist in LTM mount? I don't know.
I wait for your photo.
As for the other Sonnar, the 1,5/5cm, it looks like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261032404520&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649except for the engraving on the beauty ring: mine only has "Sonnar" (and except for the price too!). Both are in the same serial number range. And both have this curious reversed diaphragm ring...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130519131604
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130519132814
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20130519134151
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130519143229
About this 1407xxx series, I have 22 lenses in my data, from 1407018 to 1407485. So probably 500 of them were made.
Thanks, Luiz, for the first serial number.
Jacques.
Reply author: S.H.
Replied on: 20130904100815
Hello,
I posted this on the rangefinderforum, but I think some of the collectors here could be interested also. It is an interesting story about east German black market lenses. Please forgive me if you already have read this elsewhere.
I recently bought a strange light alloy uncoated Sonnar 1.5 5cm in Contax mount. This lens is from a German collector who, in the 1970s, checked the focal length because it was bigger than a normal Sonnar. It was found it is close to 60mm, even if it is marked as a 5cm lens. It has also six spanner slots in the rear. It really looks like the 5.8cm ltm lenses...
Here are some pictures of it, compared to a wartime German Sonnar.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar_60_barrel_lo.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar_60_barrel_lo.jpghttp://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_mount.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_mount.jpghttp://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_number.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_number.jpgA close up shot of the aperture mechanism:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_internal.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_internal.jpgI asked the seller about this lens, he replied :
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> In 1954-55 I bought a Kiev-camera and this lens in a then still private shop for photo-articles in Halle Saale (East-Germany) Kiev-cameras were then assembled illegally by employees of Zeiss-Jena in the Saalfeld-facctory from left-over parts from the years 1947-48 and sold on the black market or to some private shops with Sonnars 2,0 of original production smuggled out. The 1,5 lens I additional bought then was made of left-over wartimes-production of Sonnar 6cm lens blocks, made for bomb-sights originally, f-stops mechanics and blades added later. Black market only, too. It was a quite big, illegal "enterprise", later with real good mechanical parts and engraving, some with coated front lenses. Ended in the mid-fifties with many prison-sentences. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The 5.8cm ltm sonnar lenses probably come from this black market operation too. Not really a "fake" product, because produced by Zeiss employees with Zeiss parts, but rather a black market / illegal product.
Tomorrow I will show it to an experienced repairman : I'd like to use this lens but as it is, it does not really work. With a focal length close to 60mm, the helical pitch in the Contax mount or in my adapters is wrong.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130904121346
Exciting! Thanks, S.H.!
Your lens could be a true 1,5/6cm rather than a 5,8cm: I never saw such a serial number in the 5,8cm lenses.
Of course, the Thiele does not know this lens. Not surprising. But no doubt the inscriptions on the beauty ring are original.
Please, tell us what your specialist will say. You will try it on a Contax, I suppose?
Finally, I wonder if my huge 1,5/5cm would not be a 6cm...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: S.H.
Replied on: 20130904123700
Well, I can already tell you that on my M8 + Contax => Leica adapter, it does not focus right under 6 or 8 meters. Infinity at f8 is usable.
The markings look right to me and the s/n could be from around 1949/50. Plausible.
If your 1.5 / 5cm is bigger compared to a regular lens, this is probably another one.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130904162448
I should go more often on RFforum...
It is right to remember that a genuine 1,5/6cm was made by Zeiss, probably as a trial, for the Contax I. It is noted by Kuc in his first book.
I think that what the seller told you is certainly the truth or a good part of it. It would explain the variability of the mounts, of the markings, and even the coating of some lenses...
Most interesting...
Jacques.
Reply author: dennnis
Replied on: 20130905051925
I also find a number of camera lens on a website!!
http://is.gd/BQAo64some are good and cheap!!
Hi!! Welcome!!
Reply author: S.H.
Replied on: 20130905080119
The repairman took a look at it with a collimator and a Contax III, it is well calibrated at infinity. Image quality is good. On a M9 + adapter, of course, close focus is wrong. I think this is the same optical elements than the lens shown in Kuc's book : in this book it is also said that the rangefinder is not to be used at close distance.
I'll try to use a camera body with it, but I don't know if I will find a way to tune the RF at close distance... on a Contax/Kiev I would need a new helical, on a Leica the RF adjustments are probably not sufficient.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130905081016
On RFF, you had said that perhaps you would try with a Zorki you have.
Always on that track?
I will try my two odd 1,5 Sonnar lenses (the huge 5cm and the 5,8cm) on my M2 in a while. Impossible for the moment. It could give an information for the Zorki...
Reply author: S.H.
Replied on: 20130905095649
The Zorki RF has two adjustment points : infinity and 1 meter. My lens is good at infinity, so if I calibrate the Zorki RF at 1 meter it will be false everywhere else. I would have to add some parameter in here, such as machining the RF cam of the adapter : look at the rear of the 5.8cm / 6cm lenses, some do not have a simple cylindrical cam but there is a slope here as you pointed it yourself. Here is your picture seen earlier in the thread:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1832013_Sonnar%201.5-5.8%20bossage.jpg
I may be wrong, but such a lens could be done with a "standard" helical fit for a true 5cm Sonnar, the slope in the cam taking into account the difference in focal length.
So in my case with a contax mount I have some theoretical options :
- modify the RF cam of an existing Contax => Leica adapter or jupiter mount (if it fits) : very hard to do properly, I'm not in a Zeiss Factory
- get a barrel from a junked 5.8cm lens, the optical module can perhaps be swapped
- make a custom helical and cam (impossible, costs for calculations and production would be astronomically costly)
- modify a the RF of a specific body, but I do not know if it is really possible. there are always parameters to tune up in RF mechanisms, but here the focal length is clearly different so it is probably not enough.
For the last point, I must think about it with the various repairmen I know. Anyway, it is a fun little problem to think about :)
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130905101920
My big coated 1,5/5cm has a slope on the RF cam too. But officially, it's a 5cm, not a 5,8 or 6cm...
Ask if you want photos of this cam. If you want measures, it would be easier for me by pm in French! [:D]
Reply author: S.H.
Replied on: 20130905103040
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130905111948
I have just tried the two lenses.
The 1,5/5,8cm, with screwed RF, is perfect on my M2 (with LTM/M bag). On the IIIg too.
The 1,5/5cm, with a sloped RF, is curious on the M2: infinity at 5m, good at 1,20m (the last distance where the tip is in contact), nothing below (lens graduated down to 0,80m).
On my IIIg, the infinity is fine. All is OK down to 1,05, then the tip unhangs.
Certainly, a problem of compatibility with the ring for the M2. And a question of shape of tip/shape of RF for the IIIg below 1,05m...
All that will be confirmed with a film inside the IIIg.
I had seen the 1,5/6cm on eBay. Interesting (not concerning the price!).
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130919091124
I have tried the two lenses on my Leica IIIg (on a Leica only because they are both m marked).
The big coated 1,5/5cm does not be screwed easily on the camera (the same on a Fed) as if the metallurgy was imperfect. In fact, I don't feel the point where I must stop screwing. I made only three photos with this lens: not sharp, not neat, as if the focus was incorrect. I will have it regulated if I want to use it...
The 1,5/5,8cm has no problem, except between 1,20m and 1 meter which is the limit. In fact, the rangefinder cannot follow the inner movement of the lens below 1,20m because of its shape.
Here is a photo with this lens:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1992013_CCI19092013_00000.bmp
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1992013_CCI19092013_00000.bmpReally, I am much surprised by the contrasts given by this non coated lens. The general looking is the one of my best Sonnars...
Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20130919093212
Reply author: S.H.
Replied on: 20130920024556
Thanks for the pictures. It seems it is a good lens. I found mine also has good contrast, even if it is uncoated. But it will be very hard to adapt it on a Leica/contax body, except at infinity.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140111084107
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20140112142123
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140112154229
No.
But I seen somewhere lately such a lens with these two big ears.
I try to find it again.
No idea of the serial number of the lens, Luiz? It would be interesting to compare with Thiele's listing.
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20140113122342
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140115074759
Thanks Luiz. I have already seen it.
If somebody wants my listing of these odd 1.5/5cm, or /5,8cm, or /6cm: please tell. I can send that by PM.
I have just discovered that my last 1.5/5.8cm (the one with the "slopy" rangefinder) is single coated in purple and blue. This is not said in the literature I have read about these lenses. The mystery becomes darker...[:D]
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140214115616
Hello,
Happy to see that it is a connoisseur of Sonnars who joins us... Welcome!
I think by my datas that there were probably 500 of these lenses made (s/n from 1407002 to 1407485). I have two of them. They are the same, except for two features:
- the rangefinder barrel (screw or slope)
- the front lens (coating or not).
The Sonnarex are much more rare. I only knew one till now. What is the serial number of yours? Is it a LTM? Hope you will use it!
Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: it seems your files don't work.
Reply author: bezdan
Replied on: 20140214120519
Dear Jacques ;)
thank you very much for your kind welcome :). I ll try to post it again. Yes it is LTM, its sn is: 1948510 ;) and it has very fine gravure.
I am having some problems with jpeg upload.
I ll try again
Best regards
Reply author: Guido
Replied on: 20140214125920
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140214143359
Thanks, Guido [:)]. But I fear I am quite stupid concerning all that...
bezdan: sure of the number? 194xxxx and not 149xxxx? The only other s/n number concerning this ultra rare lens is 1498512.
Thanks. Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140214150613
So, my number is wrong: 1948512 and not 1498512.
Thanks.
Somebody of the Zeiss Society...
Jacques.
Reply author: bezdan
Replied on: 20140214151005
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140214152808
Absolutely beautiful!
And "für Leica": the first time I see that...
What means - 0 - on the beauty ring??
What is the weight of your lens? Mine are 187g (sloped rangefinder) and 183g (screw one). It can be important to know what the inside is made of...
Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140215034134
I have just done it. Thanks.
Considering the weight, sure the barrels are not made in alloy...
Really, I doubt that Sonnarex and 1.5/5.8 Sonnars were made by the same... Perhaps the glass?
Your lens seems not to be coated?
Jacques.
Reply author: uwittehh
Replied on: 20140215073251
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140215074339
Yes, Ulrich, I had seen it.
It was posted by Marc James Small, from the Zeiss Society.
Wie geht's?[;)]
Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20160830080634
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20160830081756
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20170212113951
Reply author: altix
Replied on: 20170916061147
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20170916104856
Thanks, Altix. So, another exotic Sonnar, in Contax mount, that time... The detachable ring is rare and interesting too... What was it for, exactly? And what does the beauty ring read?
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: altix
Replied on: 20170918075928
Dear Jacques, the beauty ring mimics the standard one. It is written there "Sonnar 1:1,5 f=5cm Carl Zeiss Jena Nr . 3144117". The use of 3 in the beginning of the serial was probably dictated by imitation reasons. Of course the focal length is not 5 but rather 6 cm.
The filter ring does not fits for 40.5 mm screw-in filters or sun shades. Probably the additional ring served as some kind of adapter for 40mm slip-on filters. By the way, such filters and caps are more typical for post war West Germany (BW, Lifa, Schneider). Can it be the indication that the faked Sonnars were produced in West Germany?
One more observation - this Sonnar is perfectly adjusted for use with Contax camera. I am not sure if this is true for Leica 58 f1.5 Sonnars.
altix
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20170918201451
Reply author: Luiz Paracampo
Replied on: 20170918201942
Dear Alti,
Unless a new thread should be appied on Contax (or Kiev) it will be impossible focus correctly
and a new discover Nikon lenthread are the same as Contax Kiev.
see
http://zeisscamera.com/articles_cnrfdr.shtmlRegards
LP
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20170919033047
Thanks, Altix, for your explanations. [:)]
As for the LTM 1,5/5,8cm, I can say that the first I have got is perfectly adjusted for Leica: I have made a roll with it and two photos are in the topic. Perfect. I don't know for the other ones.
Concerning the Hexanon, Luiz, thanks for the information. But it's too new and too expensive for me...[:D]
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20171126055550
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20171126055832
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20210303093853
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20210303095919
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