Start s/n 5800366

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Topic

Topic author: Kievuser

Posted on: 20071207101303

Hello everyone,

I guess I am a lucky guy. I bought this start without knowing that it is the very 1st version. It has a very small s/n 5800366.It is a very good number for Chinese. Some Chinese are obsessed with numbers. A car license plate with a good number could sell for much higher price.
This Start has some details difference even from a 1959 version.

I still don't know how to attach photos. I will upload images from other sites later.

Cheers,

Zhang

Replies

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071207111530

Yes, this is very early vertion. 1958 was first year of Start production and little bit more the 1000 cameras was made that year. You should put pictures to wiki!

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071207154949

Zhang, there is an early start already in the catalog:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=5&ParentID=1&ContentID=57&Item=Start+%2D+Early+Version

It has glass knobs on top in contrast with the newer one that is all metal..I guess people were cracking these a lot so they replaced them with more durable ones.

Vlad.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071207155038

But this one is '59... I wonder if there are more difference between 59 and 58... can you tell by looking at the picture of 59?

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20071207162106

The early Start has a plexiglass or lucite top on the winding knob. I don't think it cracked, but probably got scratched up a lot.

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071207233853

Vlad,

I can only see a difference. the rewinnd release button on my 58 camera is smaller with collar around it, while this 59 version is the same as my 1961 Start.My 58 Start also has two screws at the back of the pentaprism, and a metal film pressure plate.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Vlad
 But this one is '59... I wonder if there are more difference between 59 and 58... can you tell by looking at the picture of 59?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071207234251

Ah! So there there are a few subtle mechanical differences.. thanks Zhang!

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071208133205

interesting Start cameras...

this one is hand made whith hand drawing engraved KMZ logo....
but only #60xxxxx...sorry [:(]

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071208133401

ooops...[:(]

here is

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/IMG_3451.jpg

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071208155627

Wow! this what I was hunting for so long without success [:p] I'm not clear only is this turner hand made or it made by KMZ? If by KMZ how many was prodused?

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071208155815

And would be possible put detail pictures of this attachement to wiki please ??

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071208192941

I thought KMZ made these turrets as well?

Vlad.

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071209130520

ok ...some details:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/rev 1.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/rev 2.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/rev 3.jpg

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071209131241

and what about that ?:
for me ..a very bad , good idea...for use[:(]

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/rev 4.jpg

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/rev 5.jpg

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071209131512

just for info : my pictures are free , use it as you want (just put on "alain & Claire Berry collection courtesy" please)

Reply author: seka

Replied on: 20071209201214

This is another picture of the same Mermoz37's Start, shown by himself at Notre-Dame d'Oé exhibition in nov. 2005.
Photo taked with an Helios 40 around f:5.6 on TMax3200 film (poor indoor lighning conditions !)

http://www.seka.fr/pix4web/start-oe.jpg

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071209222812

Wow! Great pictures! Thank you very much for posting them!!!!
So, this turner was made by KMZ? Indefinitely? Any info when and how many was made? Did Princelle showed same unit?

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071210022107

Hello mermoz37,

Many thanks for your generocity.[:)] This is a very special camera. Amazing indeed. I am not clear how do you fire the shutter? I only saw a button for the normal lens, but how about the other lenses?[8)]

Kind Regards.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mermoz37
 just for info : my pictures are free , use it as you want (just put on "alain & Claire Berry collection courtesy" please)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071210032918

note 1: there is a trigger on handle and then a lever system , you can fire whith any lenses.
note 2 : the KMZ logo is hand engraved (not exactly shape as factory logo.
note 3: this in Princelle's is property of J.Daniel , my old friend , and the brother of mine (little bit different on shaft)

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071210043807

Many thanks! I think many French and Italian people are interested in Russian cameras.I saw quite a few Italian sites with rare and interesting Russian cameras.I saw some early Kievs in Venice that were not for sale!

Cheers,

Zhang

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mermoz37
 note 1: there is a trigger on handle and then a lever system , you can fire whith any lenses.
note 2 : the KMZ logo is hand engraved (not exactly shape as factory logo.
note 3: this in Princelle's is property of J.Daniel , my old friend , and the brother of mine (little bit different on shaft)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071210081036

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">note 3: this in Princelle's is property of J.Daniel , my old friend , and the brother of mine (little bit different on shaft)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes I see different handle in Princelle! So known at list 2 existing turners! May be more? Anyone? [:)]

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20071210115748

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by okynek
 
Yes I see different handle in Princelle! So known at list 2 existing turners! May be more? Anyone? [:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
See "Sovetskoe foto" ("Soviet photo") magazine, 1962 year, number 1, pages 30--31. Article by S. Marchenko "Turel k Startu" (The ring mount to 'Start')...
I think that all this devices were hand-made (of course, made in a machine-building plants, but illegally). May be some -- in KMZ... ;)

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071210134257

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">See "Sovetskoe foto" ("Soviet photo") magazine, 1962 year, number 1, pages 30--31. Article by S. Marchenko "Turel k Startu" (The ring mount to 'Start')...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Where can I see "Sovetskoe Foto"? Is it on the Net?

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20071210185628

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by okynek
 Where can I see "Sovetskoe Foto"? Is it on the Net?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No... :( May be somewhere, but I never saw this article in the Web.

P.S.
The first page of this article:

<center>

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/turel-k-startu-article.jpg

</center>

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071211031322

why "illegaly" ?
thre was in most factories a challenge "1000 ideas" to promote genious workers ....but "THE" plan [V]

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20071211061917

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mermoz37
 why "illegaly" ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Because illegaly... Because a worker should work, carry the output programme, but not filch a metal, use a factory lathes and so on for himself using or for a private sales. In the socialism or in the capitalism -- all is same.

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071211100550

Alain, you have to live there to understand. [:)]
1000 ideas??? That was a propaganda!!! [:)]
In reality if you offer to change, or improve anything, if you find ways how to save money, or offer new product, you momentarily became enemy number one to your boss and all the bosses of your boss and all they bosses too. They was telling to you straight up: "Are you need more then we do? What, you like to be special?"
Why do you think for 70 years Fed could not get out of basically same camera, invented by the way by Leitz?
So the only way to make something better is to make it illegally. And usually you will have every opportunity for this. But better not to be caught! [V]
And this is why I’m personally value such homemade items as much as prototypes of the cameras. Not same with most of the newly improved cameras. [;)]

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071211101612

Okynek, I do know that trend very well.. People got their government jobs and they did not want any change, they come to work, spend couple of hours working then doing god knows what.. it all really depended on the directorship... but I did notice one trend.. I am from Republic Of Georgia (Грузия) so things tend to go there exactly the way Okynek described, slow, never changing, people slacking off at work, I remember going to my dad's work place and women sat there and knitted most of the day instead of programming...

...but that being said, I noticed that the closer to the center (Moscow), the more honest people seemed to behave in their workplace, people actually really did do the 5 year plan seriously and were more "communistic" and worked harder... Look at Kransnogorsk Zavod, look at how many great ideas they had and then compare it to FED for example... It does seem like KMZ directorship was closer to the TSK (ЦК) and was more pushing for progress and for workers new ideas, maybe because directorship was afraid of the leadership being close by... And I'm talking about 70s-80s era...

Vlad

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071211102428

Still very few of such homemade creations, with help of the publications, end up on production line. This happens with FM/SM radio published in “Radio” magazine, with computer “Specialis” from magazine “Modelist-Constructor”.
Can it be happened with Alain's turel to? Can KMZ, using drawings from “Sovietskoe Foto” made few of this turners officially?

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071211103411

There are prototypes workshops in those big factories that made all sorts of new products. Could this be made by one of these shops? Then it is legal.

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071211103924

Vlad I agreed with you. KMZ was more exception then a rule. Arsenal came up with few really innovative cameras too, like Kiev 10 - big departure from Conax. But Fed and Belomo not so. Fed may have some excuses. They mostly did military stuff and parts for aviation. Camera was to them unwelcome residue, (or so I hear). But same was with all camera factories, specially with Arsenal who has more then 30.000 employee with less then 500 involved in camera making.

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20071211113921

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by okynek
 ...Fed may have some excuses. They mostly did military stuff and parts for aviation. Camera was to them unwelcome residue, (or so I hear). But same was with all camera factories...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Indeed, all Soviet cameras factories, with the exception of FED, were under MOP -- Ministry of defense industry (armament). FED was in MAP -- Ministry of aviation industry (air force, of course ;).

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071211121332

hummmm....
could you tell me why some engeneers and technician get some factory work at home ? (like some capitalists did)
i havve experiences from Baikonour (joint venture between french-Soviet factories about spatial research and satellite launch) and we had no problems to make out off series materails when a good idea appear...
but one more time , ideology is a very bad basiis for discuss...[B)]

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071211141642

Alain I wonder if you can rephrase your question?
People took work to finish it at home, because they fill obligated, they believe work what they do can make the difference. They believed in something. Or may be they have enthusiasm. And on the back of the mind they was hoping that they will be noted and may be rewarded or promoted. They did it knowing that nothing of above will happed. The good job and salary will go to relatives or friends of the bosses. But, you know, hope dying last. So they did, they work. Arsenal known to have folding beds next to the machinery and special places where after 12 hours shift you can relax for few hour and get back to work. This constantly happens on the end of the month. Or may be that was just tails floating in town? Company I work with make workers work Saturdays and Sundays, and for 12 hours/day, when they have to meet monthly quote. Hopefully things change now?
May be I did not understand you question correctly?

Reply author: mermoz37

Replied on: 20071211171732

ok , i agree this information.
thanks[^]

Reply author: Luiz Paracampo

Replied on: 20071211194547

I had a Three Lens Turret Zenit E Made in 1980, unhappily it (and Me) were victims of theft. A pity.
Those Turret Starts are simply fantastic.
but...
Who had ever seen a Lightmeter Pentaprism Start?
The Exposure meter is the same found in Iskra 2 cameras.

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071211205631

Do you have it ????? Is it made by KMZ ???? Amazing!!! I never heared about lightmeeter on Start. May be on Start-3?

Reply author: Luiz Paracampo

Replied on: 20071212101854

Zoom will tell us......

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20071212120349

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo
 Zoom will tell us......
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thank you, Luiz... ;)
But it is too much uncertainty. I, alas, do not know all... :(
Indeed, there was Start-3 (1963 year)*, but all details are unknown.

*) -- here there is a mention about it:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/history/four-millionth-camera.html
"With automatics..." -- it must be lightmeter...

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071213082143

It is strange to me that KMZ abandon Start line. Very few lens was made. Probably push from the top because Start was in direct competition with Kiev SLRs?

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071213094157

Okynek, Start was 900-something roubles.. (about 4 months of engineer salary) very few could afford it, thus I think they made so little..

Vlad

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071213095755

Vlad,

I believe that price was old rubles, it should cost 90 new rubles in 1958?

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071213100125

No I think it's the new roubles, Zhang.. Start was ridiculously expensive.. probably the most expensive amateur camera. (I'm not talking about Vostok or Rakurs)..

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071213100836

Hi, okynek,

I have seen a Start with a s/n 58002xxx.[?]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by okynek
 Yes, this is very early vertion. 1958 was first year of Start production and little bit more the 1000 cameras was made that year. You should put pictures to wiki!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reply author: okynek

Replied on: 20071213110512

Well Start was intended for professional use. Mostly by correspondents of big and small newspapers. I'm not sure if Start completely full fill this niche. But 900 new rubles it was more like year salary for engineers( after college yang engineer got 85 rubles per month, and senior earn around 100 rubles per month in 60th). So may be 900 in old rubles. After all Zenit at that time cost around 50 rubles and FED something like 40 rubles. Big money for that time any way. It could be problem to sell indeed.

Reply author: Vlad

Replied on: 20071213211228

Ok, I did some research. You guys are right, according to this pricelist... http://www.zenit.istra.ru/qa/qa-prices.html ... Start cost 125 roubles... so 900-something had to be pre-reform money.. Still it's quite a lot...

Vlad.

Reply author: nightphoto

Replied on: 20071213230144

I have heard that the Leningrad was the most expensive consumer camera of that time. Is that correct?

Regards, Bill

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20071214071834

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Vlad
 http://www.zenit.istra.ru/qa/qa-prices.html ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
See the note on this page bottom. Some prices, unfortunately, not confirmed...

P.S. START price confirmed: 125 Rubles.

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071214093739

Hi,

Here is an image of this 5800366 Start.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/zxk_tiger/IMG_7098.jpg

Reply author: Kievuser

Replied on: 20071214094215

IIRC, the most expensive production hobbist camera was Kiev 88 TTL at 850 rubles.[:D]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Zoom
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Vlad
 http://www.zenit.istra.ru/qa/qa-prices.html ...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
See the note on this page bottom. Some prices, unfortunately, not confirmed...

P.S. START price confirmed: 125 Rubles.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Reply author: Zoom

Replied on: 20071214192333

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kievuser
 IIRC, the most expensive production hobbist camera was Kiev 88 TTL at 850 rubles.[:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It was ~20 years later. An inflation... ;)

Reply author: seka

Replied on: 20071214204300

Beautiful camera, Zhang...
Thanks to make me see what's a 1st vers. ![8D]