A German shutter inside a 1951 Kiev II camera ?
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Topic
Topic author: jed
Posted on: 20140913032030
Replies
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140913033802
Reply author: AlexanderK
Replied on: 20140913052436
Hi,
there is nothing unusual. So far as I know, German parts were used in Kievs till 1952.
Regards, Alexander
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140922145254
Yes, some German parts were used late on Kievs, for example DIN lightmeters untill 1952 or 1953 for Kiev III.
But I doubt for the shutters. Anyway, it's very difficult to be affirmative. Dresden parts were (of course!) German. But what can we say about Jena ones, in the 1945/47 years? Made by German and Russian people, and looking exactly like the parts which will be made in Kiev... with the German machine tools.
I have seen somewhere an article about the differences between the texture and the glue of German vs Russian shutters. I try to find it again.
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140923075632
Ha, I have found:
http://www.zeisscamera.com/articles_blackhole.shtmlAn article by Henry Scherer, well known repairman of Contaxes.
There are very interesting details about internal differences between Contaxes and early Kievs. And a curious manner to speak of the <b>German</b> production (capital G) and of the russian one (always small r).[:D]
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140923104230
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140923105615
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20140925141417
Hi, a good way to check if this is a Zeiss shutter is to look for a black leather strip on the lower shutter roller - generally this indicates Zeiss shutter blinds. The gear design which you highlight was a Zeiss pattern, the Russians simplified the design later, possibly when the production line was re-tooled.
Cheers,
Steve
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140925164759
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140925171106
The Kiev II s/n is 511190
I also own a Kiev III s/n A511469. The Kiev III shutter has the simplified gear (!) and the same lower shutter roller.
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20140926072104
Many thanks, Jed and Steve, for all these details I was not aware of.
Is there a manner to know if these Contax parts come from Dresden or Jena, or simply were made in Kiev on the German machine tools?
You have convinced me, Jed: I will have a look at the Inside of my early Kievs to know what they hide!
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: Michel
Replied on: 20140926081011
Hi Jacques,
I'm afraid I will NOT dare to dismantle my 48, 49, 50, 51, A51 Kievs to check the shutters ! [:I][:I]
Amicalement,
M.
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20140926111809
OK, so a quick history lesson. The Soviet's had to get Zeiss Jena to reverse engineer much of the Jena Contax II from surviving parts, i.e. produce new drawings and masters from which to cast/machine new parts. Due to material shortages and loss of original machine tools, many parts varied in design from the original Contax. That said, there were large quantities of unused Zeiss Ikon components, and these were used initially to make the Kiev cameras. Hence the chrome fronts with 'CONTAX' rolled out, and KNEB hand engraved over the top. Contax blinds of a certain pattern will fit the Kiev, as will some gear sets, winding mechanism components, light baffles etc. Contax parts gradually ran out - you will find significant numbers of Zeiss parts in 1947 - 1949 cameras, then slowly they are superceded by Arsenal manufactured parts into 1950/51. Note that, for the Kiev III, early cameras had Zeiss meters and meter scales in degrees DIN. I do take some of what Henry S. says with a pinch of salt - I have worked on some dreadful Contaxes and some very fine Kiev's, particularly from the 1950's.
Cheers,
Steve
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20140926112050
Forgot to mention - your camera looks to have Kiev blinds from the appearance of the lifting heal - it looks like hard felt rather than leather.
Steve
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20140926112538
And I can see from looking at the picture of your 1951 Kiev II it looks to have a Zeiss shutter. The giveaway is the lack of the cast blind stop on the bottom left of the shutter housing - I suspect the blind itself has a brass extension on the left which hits against the inside of the film frame (which screws to the body)??
Steve
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140926134350
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20140927135443
Hi, the pictures you posted show a Kiev shutter assembly, however the ones of the non-working camera (Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 03:38:02 AM) I beleive show a Zeiss shutter. The cast blind stop shown on the second of the above pictures is not present, Zeiss eventually changed the design to the Kiev type as the brass pin which hit against the bottom of the film gate was prone to bending, causing issues with the latching of the shutter blinds. Out of interest, is the meter scale on your Kiev III marked in DIN or GOST?
Steve
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140927144905
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by SteveA</i>
<br />Hi, the pictures you posted show a Kiev shutter assembly, however the ones of the non-working camera (Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 03:38:02 AM) I beleive show a Zeiss shutter. T
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Steve,
You're right - I forgot to mention the camera is a Contax II (s/n starts with "E")
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="MS Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Out of interest, is the meter scale on your Kiev III marked in DIN or GOST?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The meter is marked in DIN :
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2949/15372188855_ebfe8c8682_c.jpg
May I ask you another question ?
Here's a back from a military Contax III, have you ever seen this before ?
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2944/15369036191_2a29bd8f0b_c.jpg
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20140928031137
Many thanks - so your Kiev III has Zeiss metering components, at least the meter scale is Zeiss Ikon and perhaps the meter itself. I've not seen that tripod mount before but I suspect it was modified to be more robust/give greater stability. With the Contax IIa/IIIa Zeiss moved the mount thread to the camera body rather than the back, which improved the robustness of the mount.
Cheers,
Steve
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140928093627
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20140928130048
Yes that little light baffle is critical - it was not fitted to the very earliest Contaxes (these also did not have the round baffle which slides into the front of the main black baffle which covers the shutter curtains). It is so flimsy it soon gets damaged or lost. A small piece of black tape can be used across the join between the main body and film gate if the little baffle is missing.
There should also be paper baffling over the top of the shutter, between the chassis and body.
Steve
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20140930104740
Thanks lots Steve !
A 1950 - non working - Kiev II is on the way to my home. I will post pictures of the shutter.
Best,
Jean
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20141015113630
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20141015135543
Hi Jed, yes these are Kiev blinds, you can tell by the felt pad on the lower drum.
Cheers,
Steve
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20141015142502
Steve,
Serial number is very hight - more than 6000 Kiev cameras that year ? 1950 Kievs are hard to find items.
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20141016132931
Princelle suggests 'a very low production of around 5,000 per year' for the first three years. Suspect they are hard to find as many have worn out/been thrown away before they became collectible.
Cheers,
Steve
Reply author: Jacques M.
Replied on: 20141016142216
Hi jed!
For the moment, I have in my data numbers between 500456 to 506446 (I own the last one) about Kievs II.
So, probably about 6000 cameras made.
But nothing is certain. Holes are possible...
Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20141025131948
Hello,
I also own an early 1950 Kiev (export model s/n 501504) - I just have checked : the shutter seems the same as the one pictured here (october 15)
My 1958 Kiev 3a 'Ukrainian Logo' has s/n 5835128. So they made around 35000 cameras that year ? Kiev 3a is very well made.
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20141103145305
Reply author: SteveA
Replied on: 20141104145159
Hi, the chassis numbering style is very similar to my 1948 Kiev, serial number 481100 and chassis number 1100, and some photos I have of a Kiev s/n 501774 (chassis 1767) which I repaired some years back. Looks to be engraved with a sharp object into the alloy - later the numbers were stamped.
The way the number 4 is engraved on your chassis looks typically Russian to me - I have seen it written in a very similar manner in documents I have with camera serial numbers, lens serial numbers etc.
Cheers,
Steve
Reply author: jed
Replied on: 20141104160343
