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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Jun 21 2009 : 12:23:56 AM
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Dear friends
Some informations about a copy of the russian F-21 spy camera from China are to be found on the internet [1]. The identification of this camera seems to be "1503".
It looks on the first view like a modified copy with an other time setting mechanism and also other speeds (1/2, 1/5, 1/30, 1/60 and 1/150 on the copy and 1/10, 1/30 and 1/100 on the original F-21 from Russia). Also the window for the picture counter is not round like on the original F-21, but rectangular. The front plate has no roundet corners and the overall form of the body looks a little other than the body of the original spy camera F-21. Even the dimentions are similar, but the chinese variant is a little higher.
It's a very interesting variant of the russian F-21 I think. But according to an other documentation [2] there also exist other spy cameras from China with the identification "1501", "1502" and "1504". I have absolutly no idea what kind of cameras this could be.
Do anyone of you have any further informations on this cameras (1501 to 1504)? I'm also looking for a picture of one of these cameras for publication in my documentation on the F-21 (sorry, still in german only ...) [3].
By the way: Now a original russian user manual [4] and a translation in german [5] is available on my site.
Any advice on this topic would be very welcome! Thank you in advance.
Best wishes - Guido
Picture:
http://www.g-st.ch/temp/f21china.jpg
[1]
Original:
http://www.sy916.net/info/sy916test4/showarticle.php?id=81
Translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.sy916.net/info/sy916test4/showarticle.php%3Fid%3D81&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsy916%26hl%3Dde&rurl=translate.google.de
[2]
Original:
http://www.fotoo.cn/html/33/n-1133.html
Translation:
http://translate.google.de/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.fotoo.cn/html/33/n-1133.html&ei=9QQ9Suq2DcOQ-AaQzditBQ&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=10&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsy916%2B1503%26hl%3Dde%26sa%3DN%26start%3D10
[3]
http://www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/f21.html
[4]
http://www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/pdf/f21/f21manual_russisch.pdf
[5]
http://www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/f21manual.html
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 10:54:40 AM
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Hi Guido,
I just found in "Collector (private) blue book" this document ...may be it help you ???
you know , it exist too a Chinese copy of repro device "yolochka" ?
Alain
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2262009_F 21 Chinois.jpg Bill.jpg
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 1:47:52 PM
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Hello Alain
Thank you very much for this very interesting copy.
Best wishes - Guido
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 4:43:58 PM
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Hello Alain
About the "Yolochka" Detlev from Germany send me the following picture. Also in the GDR this device was used under the names "C-64" (="S-64" in cyrillic letters) and "Jel". It seems to be a not so uncommon export item from KMZ.
Best wishes - Guido
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2262009_Jel.jpg
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 5:44:51 PM
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I believe the Yolochka was made at BeLOMO.
Regards, Bill
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 6:08:16 PM
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Hello Bill
I don't know, but under the picture of the RF-1 from 1998 in the 2nd edition of Princelles book is stated "doc. KMZ".
Best wishes - Guido
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 8:20:13 PM
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Hi Guido,
I think it may be the case that the early models of Yolochka were thought of and possibly some were produced at KMZ, however, the KMZ website does not list the camera on it's "camera models" page and BeLomo does show it on their website:
http://www.belomo.by/en/15_3raz.htm
As well, the construction and finish of the unit looks more like BeLOMO to me, and many of these official types of copying or reproduction units like the S-112 were possibly first made by KMZ and then by BeLOMO (as stated in Princelle about that camera). In general, it seems to me that the KBG cameras have characteristics of KMZ, but the police or border guard type of equipment looks more like BeLOMO. Maybe says "DOC. KMZ" because thats where the photo came from (and maybe was designed).
Regards, Bill
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 10:10:38 PM
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Hello Bill
You are absolutly right, now I also believe this device was made by BelOMO. After looking the pictures on this site:
http://www.nightphoto.com/c64.html
By the way: A search for "Micrat 200" or "Mikrat 200" will give mainly results refering to a so called film. In one document I found this description: "(...) The film was Micrat 200 (Tasma, Kazan, Russia) monochrome, which was chosen because of its extended density range and fine grain."
So is it probable that the camera used on the "Yolochka" device has the same name like this film used for scientific purpose or is there a "historical error" behind? Could it be that the camera was often filled with the film "Micrat 200" and the naming of the camera was a misunderstanding?
On your beautiful pictures of this cameras I can't find any nameplate or engraving and even on the pictured packing list there is no sign of a number "200" to be found.
Best wishes - Guido
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 22 2009 : 11:34:27 PM
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That's right Guido, there are no identification engravings anywhere on either the camera (MICRAT-200) or the Yolochka unit (S-64 or RA-1). But, maybe there is a manual which I do not have that does mention the name / number of the camera and unit.
The seller that I bought this particular Yolochka from told me that it came from a Soviet Navy installation at or near Odessa, so perhaps these units, because they were made for the military and border guards, just had no factory identification (in other words ... they were military issue and so no factory identification was necessary).
I have noticed that many things made by BeLomo have the unique style of the letter "N" in the engravings (usually the "N." or "No." before the serial number). This "N" has long outward ends (I believe called "serifs" to the top and bottom lines on the end of the "N". So this is one way to help decide if an unmarked camera of the military-police type was made at BeLOMO (at least that is my theory for the present).
Some of these kinds of cameras may have been developed and even made at KMZ for a while and then sent to BeLOMO (or possibly Kazan ?) for permanent manufacture (this is another unproven theory also).
For example, I believe Princelle says that there is a C-112 camera that has an F-21 inside ... so must have been made by KMZ ... although I have never seen it!
Regards, Bill
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 12:36:49 AM
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Hello Bill
"Mikrat-200", "Mikrat-300" and "Mikrat-Ortohrom" are industrial films and this made me thinking that the camera from the "Yolochka" device should have an other name. Maybe someone could translate the packing list from inside the wooden box of your "Yolochka", there is a very good picture of it on your site:
http://www.nightphoto.com/c648.html
Maybe we will not find out anything new about the camera name, but it's an interesting research after all.
For the missing marks on military other governal used cameras I fully agree with you.
For the S-112 with an F-21 inside I also heard of from Detlev recently, but he has no picture of it. He told me that some years ago such a device was sold on eBay.
Best wishes - Guido
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 08:13:32 AM
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Hello Alain
You own a very interesting book as I can see ... ;-) - Only the camera looks a little different than the one used on the russian variant.
Thank you very much for showing this picture!
Best wishes - Guido
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 08:32:33 AM
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it is a rare "private" edition book (blue cover)...300 pages about Chinese cameras ...many models are unknown currently (something like Viktor 's bible about Soviets !)
It is a pity I do not read Chineses characters  |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 10:44:33 AM
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Hello Alain
Well ... okay, I'm not very much interested in chinese cameras but some copies of russian cameras are quite interesting! So I'm lucky to know you and to know that you own such a book ... ;-)))
Have a good time - Guido
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Edited by - Guido on Jun 23 2009 10:58:27 AM |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 10:57:33 AM
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Hello Bill
As Detlev let me know right now in the original S-64 manual the *film* "Mikrat-200" is mentioned, but no camera name. So I'm more and more convinced that my speculation was right: A camera with the name "Mikrat 200" don't exist, it's just the film that is used with this camera and others. Maybe it would be a good idea to change the Wiki entry?
Best wishes - Guido
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 12:56:12 PM
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Yes, I don't think the camera is called Micrat either. In fact, I don't think that the camera was really made separately from the reproduction stand. However, over the years many sellers in Russia and elsewhere have sold the camera separately as a "spy" camera, which it is not... it is a reproduction camera when you look at the specifications ... for example the shutter only goes to 1/20th at the fastest ... not too good for hand held spy work! And if Micrat Industrial film was meant to be used, that conotates an industrial or reproduction use as well.
I personally think that the WIKI entry for the camera as a separate unit should be eliminated or combined with the entry for Yolochka, and the entry for Yolochka should actually be in the section for "Military and Official Use Cameras" rather than "Medical and Special Cameras". Maybe Vlad can help us move it when he has the time.
As well, I will add some of the photos and information from my site about Yolochka into the WIKI entry for it.
Regards, Bill
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Dayton nathandayton
USA
95 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 23 2009 : 6:11:15 PM
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A couple of general comments about the Yolochka!
This device was made as a document copying device. Perhaps a good way to describe it is as a "special" copier.
In the "Soviet" world copiers were tightly controlled. Like early copiers in the west the required a key. But unlike the west where we produced a "sea of paper", use required special permission and was tightly controlled!
The Yolochka was used at border crossings, airports, government buildings and anywhere where they wanted to record the documents of travelers or entrants.
In my forays into East Berlin I saw them constantly. It provided much more security because the copies were on photo paper and immediately recognizable as copies. |
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 24 2009 : 07:10:10 AM
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Hello Alain
Thanks to Detlev who knows someone that talks chinese I could make a translation of the page of special cameras that you showed us two days ago:
"Shanghai type 1501
Produced in factory 832, this camera is used for research and observation. It can be used under particular circumstances.
Seagull type 120 variant
Member of the type 1502 special camera group. Produced in factory 2, this special camera is used for taking portrait pictures.
Shanghei type 1503
This spy camera was produced in the 1980s in factory 832. Form 1/2 to 1/150 seconds there are 7 exposure times available. There are three lenses available for changing at different situations. The camera use a clockwork motor for film transportation and can take 14 pictures at the time. It uses a 7x0.7mm screw thread on the shutter release buttom for adapting a cable release. An unperforated film of 20.5mm width is used, the picture size is 18x24mm. The camera size is 77x29x59mm, the weight is 185g."
The 1502 seems to be a modified Seagull 4, a copy of the german Rolleiflex made in China from the 1970s on.
Best wishes - Guido
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 24 2009 : 07:14:50 AM
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Hello Nathan
I think the "Yolochka" could even be called "portalbe document copying device".
Best wishes - Guido
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1013 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 24 2009 : 1:26:11 PM
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The book is no rarity, at least two of them in this group!
Best regards,
Juhani |
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F-21 copy from China
