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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 11 2012 :  10:52:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Hello,

I have had my Red Flag for some weeks. And looking for other pictures of that camera on the net, I am a bit surprised by the differences between these cameras: fake or variations due to factory difficulties ...?

So, perhaps we could put together what we know. When a camera is rare, it is difficult to compare it with the other items of the series...

First, a general view of this # 200209 Fed Red Flag:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 001.jpg

Next message about the cover.

Jacques.

Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 11 2012 :  11:08:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 005.jpg

The cover shows the famous inscription with "FED" just above the serial number. As far as I know, all looks correct on that cover, except that the last but one line (two letters) does not exist. It's not the first time that there is something missing on the cover of a Fed 1 or 2. But there can be too other explanations...




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 006.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 007.jpg

Two other detailed pictures of the same part.
I will go on later. All comments and comparisons are welcome!

Amitiés. Jacques.
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David Tomlinson
RCCCUK
United Kingdom
208 Posts
Posted - May 12 2012 :  02:25:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jacques,

I have checked my Red Flag, and it certainly matches the description in Jean Loup Princelle's book. The wind and rewind knobs have much finer milling than the standard FED of the time. The body covering is much smoother and most importantly, the shutter housing is made of brass not aluminium. I hope this helps.

David.
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 12 2012 :  10:12:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Thanks, David. Of course it helps: the milling of the knos, the body covering and the brass shutter cage are certainly the main features common to all the Fed "Red Flag".

But I wonder if there are other common features. And if genuine variations can exist.

We know the factory had really important difficulties to restart the production in the years 1946-48. A possible series of 1e was probably mounted in 1946 at Kharkov with parts coming from Berdsk. After, it's the Red Flag. Was it made with parts made at Kharkov? Totally? Partially? Are there parts which can come from a prewar board ? If yes, one can find genuine variations. If no, fakes lie under them.

For example, the milling of the knobs.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 009.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 010.jpg

No doubt: it is finer than the on the 1c, d, e,f and g. It looks like the 1a and first 1b's. But I cannot decide if it is exactly the same or not. The (evident) question is: did they found 1a and b's buttons and put them on the Red Flags? Can we find other buttons on Red Flags which "seem" genuine? David, are the buttons of your RF exactly like mine?

I go on with other detailed pictures!
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 12 2012 :  10:30:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now, the disconnecting button.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 003.jpg

I have not found in my prewar Feds such a coarse milling. It exists too on early Fed 1f: my 1f # 210921 has exactly the same, my # 215495 has a finer milling (and a slimmer button). We can suppose that this type of button was specially made for the RF and used after on 1fs.

On the RF like on all the prewar cameras and the first 1f, there is a hollow near this button:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 004.jpg

So, we can suppose that a RF without that hollow is not a genuine one!


Edited by - Jacques M. on May 12 2012 10:34:40 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 12 2012 :  10:49:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

The metallurgy of the cover is interesting. For example, the angles near the speed button.
On my RF, these angles seem blunt, much more than on the other RF I have seen on the net.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 002.jpg

On the other hand, JLP shows in his book the RF # 200161 with the same blunt angles. Does that mean something about metallurgy? A sub series of some RF? I don't know...
The other Feds of the same period (1e and f) have sharper angles.

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 12 2012 :  11:04:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The two last points (for me) seem common to all the genuine RF: the cover of the body and the brass shutter cage.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 008.jpg

One can find this cover with "horizontal" pattern only on the RF and the very early 1f. As for the shutter cage, brass was the rule till the # 110000/120000, then it was replaced by aluminium. After the RF, brass was used on 1f (very roughly till # 250000), then aluminium was re used.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 013.jpg

I have seen these two features on all the RF, except Alain's one which had an alu shutter box and a regular (1d type) body cover. It's interesting to know, as Alain had bought his RF at a time when it was not interesting to make fakes...


Edited by - Jacques M. on May 12 2012 11:44:58 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 12 2012 :  11:14:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, I am now at the end of the pictures I had prepared for this topic.
I would be very happy if we could discuss about all that...

One more detail, probably the strangest: my RF has a yellow rangefinder. What about yours, David, Alexander...? I don't know other Fed with such a colour. But the TSVVS has it too!

Amitiés. Jacques.

Edited by - Jacques M. on May 12 2012 11:17:01 AM
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Alexander K.
AlexanderK
Germany
568 Posts
Posted - May 14 2012 :  4:31:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Jacques,
I checked my NKAP and made some photos of the camera:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0430.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0435.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0436.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0437.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0438.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0439.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0442.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0446.JPG

I tried to make photos similar to yours. You can compare them and make your opinion.
The first, what seems to me a little strange is an engraving on the top plate. Your engraving has no "им." ("named after") between "завод" and "Ф.Э.Дзержинского".

Regards, Alexander
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 15 2012 :  03:04:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Thanks, Alexander for your pictures!
As I have said, I am a bit surprised too by the lack of the two letters.
The other interesting difference is the corners of the cover (soft on mine, sharp on yours).
For the buttons, it seems they are the same.

What about the shutter cage? Alu or brass? And about the rangefinder? Yellow or not?

Thanks again. Jacques.
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Alexander K.
AlexanderK
Germany
568 Posts
Posted - May 17 2012 :  04:18:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jacques,
shutter cage is brass, rangefinder spot is yellow.
If you need more photos, let me know.

Regards, Alexander
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - May 17 2012 :  08:45:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Great!
So, the Red Flag could be the only Fed to have a yellow rangefinder. The same as the TSVVS's... But two owners, it's not enough to make a rule...

Here, there are some more Red Flags. Curious, even if we consider that the factory had problems to restart the production...
http://hylee617.tripod.com/hylee617/russian/fed/fed1eftg.htm

Amitiés. Jacques.

Edited by - Jacques M. on May 17 2012 08:52:21 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Jun 05 2012 :  2:29:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

No news about the yellow colour of the rangefinder?

Jacques.
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Niko80
Austria
172 Posts
Posted - Aug 20 2013 :  7:25:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
While looking for new serials to add to the wiki I came across several cameras which seem a bit different than the ones shown here. Do you think they are original?

At DVD Collection:
#200680
#201702 with Sonnar
http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/1/5.htm

From hylee617:
#200006 "prototype" with notched finder window
#200202
http://hylee617.tripod.com/hylee617/russian/fed/fed1eftg.htm

What makes me wonder is that in both cases, the engravings of the two cameras shown together look the same yet the engravings at DVD are slightly different from the ones at hylee617.

Also - Vlad, could you link this thread to the corresponding wiki entry?

Regards,
Christian



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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 21 2013 :  09:54:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is very difficult to say if a Red Flag is genuine or not. In fact, it largely depends on what we will find in the Fed Berdsk topic...

If Red Flags were made of recovered parts, as I feel, no doubt we could admit some variations. But it is a personal idea, not even a theory...

Nevertheless, the engravings should probably be always the same, which excludes one of the Red Flags you show. As for the DVD's, the s/n 201702 looks interesting, with the belt (and the vulcanite) of an early 1c. Genuine made from early parts or not genuine?

Amitiés. Jacques.

PS: more than 1000 posts, already...

Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 21 2013 09:59:32 AM
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
1851 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Aug 21 2013 :  2:26:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Luiz Paracampo's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Jacques
Congratulations for coming to the Family of the thousands...
kind Regards
LP
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Niko80
Austria
172 Posts
Posted - Aug 21 2013 :  5:03:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And I still have a long way to 100 posts...

Jacques, how can you tell #201702 has early 1c Parts? You mean the half-visible screw near the lens mount?

.)none of the 4 cameras has a "dent" near the rewind knob
.)I can't see the specific NKAP-Vulcanite pattern in any of the cameras
.)not sure about the coarse milling of knobs, what do you think?

Should I add the serials to the wiki?
Which additional categories should we include?
Vulcanite/milling/?
I feel we have more exceptions than rules.

However if it's true that new machinery was built from scratch at Berdsk, new inexperienced workers had to be trained and some leftover parts from Kharkov were also used, this seems to make perfect sense.
Unfortunately this makes the camera rather easy to fake.
Check out these crude fakes:
http://www.ebay.at/itm/FED-1-NKAP-Rare-Russian-Leica-Copy-Camera-EXCELLENT-/390644388313?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item5af43851d9
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Camera-FED-NKAP-Lens-cap-Spool-s-n-0034-/161057454007?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item257fc5b7b7
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Camera-FED-NKAP-Lens-cap-Spool-s-n-0099-/181168263312?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item2a2e785090

Regards,
Christian
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Niko80
Austria
172 Posts
Posted - Aug 21 2013 :  5:04:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And I still have a long way to 100 posts...

Jacques, how can you tell #201702 has early 1c Parts? You mean the half-visible screw near the lens mount?

.)none of the 4 cameras has a "dent" near the rewind knob
.)I can't see the specific NKAP-Vulcanite pattern in any of the cameras
.)not sure about the coarse milling of knobs, what do you think?

I added the serials to the wiki, please remove r mark them if you feel any of the 4 cameras is fake.

Really hard to tell, I feel we have more exceptions than rules.

However if it's true that new machinery was built from scratch at Berdsk, new inexperienced workers had to be trained and some leftover parts from Kharkov were also used, this seems to make perfect sense.
Unfortunately this makes the camera rather easy to fake.
Check out these crude fakes:
http://www.ebay.at/itm/FED-1-NKAP-Rare-Russian-Leica-Copy-Camera-EXCELLENT-/390644388313?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item5af43851d9
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Camera-FED-NKAP-Lens-cap-Spool-s-n-0034-/161057454007?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item257fc5b7b7
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Camera-FED-NKAP-Lens-cap-Spool-s-n-0099-/181168263312?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item2a2e785090

Regards,
Christian

Edited by - Niko80 on Aug 21 2013 6:54:27 PM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 23 2013 :  03:52:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Luiz, for your congratulations!
Happy you are the one to open the doors for me...

Christian, I think you won't be long to attain the 500 posts!
I know the NKAP you notice.
For me, there are at least two rules:
- the serial number must be between 200000 and 201800. No possible exception,
- the engravings must be the same. A notable point is the C (of CCCP) which must have a flat head.

I would have added the special vulcanite and the shutter box made of brass. But if NKAP-s were made from spare parts...

I will have a look at the wiki as soon as possible.

Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: the s/n 201702 has a central screw half hidden and the vulcanite of last 1b/early 1c. It was certainly made with parts of the 54xxx/60xxx series.

Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 23 2013 03:58:26 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 23 2013 :  09:54:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Christian,

I am OK with the wiki concerning the Red Flag. For the moment! But perhaps you are a bit too fast...
That said, the s/n 200006 is curious, with this cover never made by Fed. Borrowed to a Leica Couplex or III(F), as it seems.

Jacques.
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Niko80
Austria
172 Posts
Posted - Oct 01 2013 :  2:45:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello Alexey!

Does this really concern Red Flag cameras or rather FED1'a'?

For FED1'a' see here:
http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2406

Regards,
Christian
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
233 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 12 2013 :  10:57:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit fedka's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If more numbers are needed, I have a Red Flag #200990
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Niko80
Austria
172 Posts
Posted - Oct 13 2013 :  3:20:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Yuri!
Serials are always welcome.

Could you please tell us the lens s/n as well?
Some pictures of your camera would also be great, we still have only very few examples and they seem to differ a lot.

Regards,
Christian

Edited by - Niko80 on Oct 13 2013 3:39:29 PM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Oct 27 2013 :  12:41:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Another "NKAP":
http://molotok.ru/fed-aviacionnaya-promyshlennost-i3644387619.html

Not completely convincing, I fear...

Amitiés. Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 19 2017 :  09:27:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Hello,

A new Red Flag, here. But not a "classical" one. Here are some photos of the seller:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 200898 1.jpg



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 200898 5.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 200898 8.jpg

So, no fine milling on the buttons, iron sheet for the shutter box, common vulcanite. But a correct "NKAP" cover, as it seems.

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 19 2017 :  09:49:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have taken it to pieces, to know more about the camera. Especially if it belongs to a series of Fed, or if it was made from spare parts.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 200898.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 200898 25.JPG

Vulcanite, shutter box made of iron, idem for the press film which has a hole. Probably a camera of the 1d series, s/n between c. 115xxx/145xxx.

Other photos to follow.


Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 19 2017 10:03:36 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 19 2017 :  10:20:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 3 200898.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 13 200898.JPG

The cover seems normal, compared to those I know. The typical letters seem good. And the serial number has the three first digits ("200")which slightly go up, like on other NKAP.
About the speed mechanism, there is no hole for the slow speeds. I don't know exactly when we find this hole. Anyway, the upper plate cannot belong to a 1b series (without hole for slow speeds) because of the centered screw, completely visible on the front.


Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 19 2017 10:36:56 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 19 2017 :  11:01:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

So, the camera is probably a "nearly pure" 1d. The s/n of the lens points towards that direction too (s/n 117836).

Is it a genuine NKAP?
It has been my guess at the beginning of this thread that besides the "classical series" of NKAP, workers had to use what they had to achieve the series of 1800 cameras.

A word more about the covers. This one has the same drawing of letterings as my NKAP s/n 200209. But the shape of the angle round the speed dial is different: sharp on the 200898, blunt on the 200209. That could mean that covers of different series were indistinctly used and reingraved...

I hope a discussion!

Amitiés. Jacques.



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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 20 2017 :  08:21:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Something more about the camera.

When I took it to pieces, all was very tight. I even damaged one of the four screws of the lensplate to remove it. The shutter was curved and non working due to age and non useness. I had to clean the mechanism. No doubt: the camera had not been opened during a very long time.

About the screws, I had the surprise to notice that some are magnetic and others are not, as if the workers had a box of used pell mell screws to mount the camera. Always concerning that question, the photo counter is magnetic too. I will have to check all my other Fed 1...

Questions and comments are welcome!

Amitiés. Jacques.
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts
Posted - Aug 20 2017 :  3:51:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jacques greetings!
On my cell №200347 the nuts are not covered by anything.
This we can see in the early FED-Sharp # 00221.
This is understandable, since all spare parts from Berdsk came to Krasnogorsk in 1942. And part of the spare parts in 1946 returned to Kharkov.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082017_200347.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082017_210073.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082017_00221.JPG

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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts
Posted - Aug 20 2017 :  3:52:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

As for the comparison of the selected detail, it is clearly from the early FED of the NKVD of the Ukrainian SSR to No. 40.xxx.
If I'm wrong, correct me please.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082017_1.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2082017_resize_image.jpg

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Aug 21 2017 :  02:56:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Thanks for your comments and photos, Alexey!
Just a remark concerning the press film.

I have checked them, and I can find press films which are magnetic and have a hole only on my cameras s/n 119792 and 127195. Before, the hole is there, but the press film is not magnetic. After, there is no more hole and the press film is magnetic. So, I think that this part belongs to a Fed 1d s/n c. 115/145xxx.

About the crown which fastens the cover and the accessory shoe, I think the one I have shown (with six holes) is regular in those numbers. What is the s/n of the camera where you have this crown with three holes? I will try to find the same on my cameras...

Amitiés. Jacques.

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Oct 19 2018 :  11:09:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

So, a new Red Flag arrived here, s/n 200977.
Nothing odd. The vulcanite (stretched) and engravings seem genuine...


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19102018_IMG_0663.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19102018_IMG_0665.JPG

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Oct 19 2018 :  11:14:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

... and the bolts and nuts are ordinary too:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19102018_DSCF2723.JPG

I just wonder at the small extra cup, which was added inside the bottom plate. Perhaps the locking was not safe? If you have an idea...


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19102018_DSCF2722.JPG

Amitiés. Jacques.

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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts
Posted - Oct 19 2018 :  4:15:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
To stabilize this belt of metal ? Is it moving ?
If it is moving sometimes there could have been problem to take off bottom plate because this was not possible to turn a lock.
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jed
France
382 Posts
My Collection

Posted - Oct 20 2018 :  02:05:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit jed's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello,

it is a special feature which locks a reloadable cassette ?


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/20102018_DSCF3039.JPG


Edited by - jed on Oct 20 2018 02:06:32 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Oct 20 2018 :  05:35:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Bravo, Jean! You are absolutely right.
I have just checked. The cup exactly fits the locking button of the cassette.
As I can suppose: when the bottom is put with the cassette inside, the copper plate presses on the locking button of the cassette. This movement frees the locking button, and the bottom plate can be closed.
But I am not inside to check!

Amitiés. Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Dec 16 2019 :  10:14:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

A new Red Flag here! And I am particularly happy, because that time, there is absolutely no doubt: it is a real fake!
Here it is:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/16122019_IMG_2439.JPG

Bad lens (violet coating with new scale of speeds), incorrect vulcanite, incorrect milling of buttons, etc. In fact, all the features of a 1d between s/n 110/15xxxx. But all that is probably not so important compared to the engraving of the cover...

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Dec 16 2019 :  10:28:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/16122019_IMG_2440.JPG

A beautiful chrome, and a very regular engraving. Much more than the original one if we compare:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/16122019_IMG_2441.JPG

There are many differences: depth of engraving, size of letters, space between lines, surface covered by text, etc. For me, the two main visible differences are
- the absence of dash between NKAP and CCCP on the s/n 200068
- the low "T" on the second line (always on the 200068).

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Dec 16 2019 :  10:56:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Several Red Flags are shown on this site:
http://hylee617.tripod.com/hylee617/russian/fed/fed1eftg.htm

On this site, the s/n 200006 and 200202 have the same "T" and absence of dash as my s/n 200068. Probably two other fakes. Note that these Red Flags are in our wiki... See please
http://ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=98&ParentID=1&ContentID=812&Item=Fed+NKAP+%28Red+Flag%29

Certainly, these cameras were made by the same "faker" as my s/n 200068.
But, more generally, when can we say that a "Red Flag" is a fake?
Are there genuine cameras with 1c or 1d bodies? Not impossible. But the engraving of the cover is certainly essential to differentiate genuine from fakes.

Your comments are welcome!

Amitiés. Jacques.

Edited by - Jacques M. on Dec 17 2019 3:05:10 PM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Jan 22 2020 :  2:44:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

No comment?

Another possible comparison with the s/n 3245, always on the hylee.617 site.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2212020_Fed NKAP fake.jpg

That time, the fake is evident...
In fact, this s/n 200068, and his "brothers", the s/n 200006 and 200202, certainly have an engraving which is too perfect, compared to the genuine Red Flags. I suspect it was made with modern tools, unless a there is a second set of tools which was used.

Amitiés. Jacques.

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Apr 04 2020 :  09:03:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

A new fake of Red Flag soon here. The second type of fakes, for the Red Flags, with s/n in the 32xx range.
Here is a photo of the seller.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/442020_Fed NKAP 3216 1.jpg

It could be a brother of the s/n 3245 (cf my precedent post). I will tell more when I receive it.

Amitiés. Jacques.

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Niko80
Austria
172 Posts
Posted - Apr 04 2020 :  4:57:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I see you have become an avid collector of NKAP fakes!

The history of these is interesting in itself, I wonder when they were made. Nowadays it's probably too expensive and people lack the skill and equipment. My guess would be 80s-90s?

Maybe we should distinguish the 2 types of probable fakes - big and small letters - in the wiki?
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Apr 06 2020 :  08:44:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Ha! Thanks for your comment, Christian! I was feeling a bit alone on this thread...
Probably the fakes can help to identify the genuine cameras, when they belong to rare series. It's the case here: we have two probable series of fakes, with a stronger identity than the genuine ones! Now, I am nearly sure that the only certain parameter is the engraving of the cover.

I am going to complete the wiki.

Amitiés. Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Apr 21 2020 :  07:41:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

I have just received the fake Red Flag # 3216.
Nothing really particular. Very probably, it was originally a Fed 1d (or perhaps a 1e), which is confirmed by the s/n of the lens: 158001. Something strange about the lens: though with a prewar scale of diaphs (3,5 - 4,5 - 6,3 etc), it is coated.
I hoped that the internal date could help to identify the body, but it is only half visible (29/?).

A photo of the cover, with the engraving:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2142020_IMG_0091.JPG

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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Apr 21 2020 :  07:49:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

And now, a photo of the two fakes, side by side.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2142020_IMG_0093.JPG

The differences are evident... I just wonder why such a range was used: why especially the 32xx ?

Comments are welcome!

Amitiés. Jacques.

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Niko80
Austria
172 Posts
Posted - Apr 25 2020 :  08:55:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jacques, do any of your obvious fakes have traits we consider "original"?
What about vulcanite, milling and yellow viewfinder, shutterbox?
If so, could you make list or table with all your Red Flag cameras, "original" and "fake" and their traits for comparison?

About the coated lens, it's relatively easy for a repairman to replace the lenses, I had this done in one of my FED1 I use for photography.

What makes me wonder the most is the fine milling. Do we know that these parts are truly identical with FED1'a' or are they exclusively made for the Red Flag?
It is hard to imagine why exactly 'a' parts should have either been shipped to Berdsk in larger quantities or survived the war in Kharkow. Both makes no sense and we're talking about quantities of many hundred of not thousand. Then again many RF seem to be made from parts of relatively early cameras. Maybe they kept those parts in the factory. who knows?

Also the yellow viewfinder - where did it come from?
By the way, my FED 1'a' #1233 has a yellow viewfinder as well. Was this seen in any other early FED1'a'?

Edited by - Niko80 on Apr 25 2020 09:16:05 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Apr 26 2020 :  10:39:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

None of my two obvious fakes has what we consider as "original" features.
About your demand, I can compare my Red Flags under the following parameters:
- vulcanite,
- milling of main buttons,
- milling of releasing button,
- shutterbox
- film plate,
- engraving,
- magnetic properties of the two plates and the cover.

Do you see something else?

About the milling of the main buttons, it is fine on Red Flags. But not so fine as on my 1a-s. I cannot say if this type of milling had been used previously on the NKVD-s: problems of sight. In fact, that question is poorly documented: one usually counts two types of milling (fine and coarse); there are probably at least four: "ultra" fine (1a), fine (1b), coarse (from 1c) and the Red Flag one, between the 1a and the early 1b as it seems to me. But all that must be checked.

Concerning the rangefinder, all my RF have a normal one, except my #200209 (yellow). As to say why...
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Niko80
Austria
172 Posts
Posted - Apr 26 2020 :  12:32:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, that would be great!
I could think of chrome properties of the top plate (seems coarse on the ones we deem original).
If you have an accurate scale, weighting the cameras wihout lens and spool would probably be interesting too. And maybe - if you can say - the type of FED you think was used for the body.

Regarding the milling I had forgotten it is also found in early b, I will check mine and provide pictures.
We should make an extra thread as it concerns different types of cameras.
Good macro photos should help, apart from that all I can think of is measuring the diameter of the knobs with a caliper but I have none right now.


About the yellow rangefinder, no idea why it is on my early FED1'a' either. The rings are original brass. If we assume the Red Flag was made from parts these yellow pieces must have come from somewhere. But in a single camera it may as well be some later modification and repair. Doesn't TSVVS also have yellow rangefinders?

Well, one step at a time, I am preparing further thoughts on the Red Flag to post in the coming days but I'd like an overview over the properties of the cameras first...
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Apr 27 2020 :  07:44:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, a short comparison between my 5 "so called" Red Flags.

-----------------------.-----200068---.-----200209---.----200898---.----200977---.----3216------.

-vulcanite-------------.----1d type---.---stretched--.---1d type---.---stretched-.---1d type----.
-milling main buttons--.-----coarse---.-----fine-----.---coarse----.----fine-----.----coarse----.
-diam. main buttons----.--18,5mm-12mm-.-18,7mm-12mm--.-18,5mm-12mm-.-18,4mm-12mm-.-18,4mm-12mm--.
-milling disc. button--.---very fine--.----coarse----.--very fine--.---coarse----.--very fine---.
-engraving on cover----.-----bad------.---correct----.---correct---.---correct---.----bad-------.
-magn. cover-----------.-----No-------.------No------.-----No------.-----No------.-----No-------.
-magn. upper plate-----.-----No-------.------No------.-----No------.-----No------.-----Yes------.
-magn. baseplate-------.-----No-------.------No------.-----No------.-----No------.-----Yes------.
-shutterbox------------.----steel-----.----brass-----.----steel----.----brass----.----steel-----.
-film plate------------.-----hole-----.---No hole----.----hole-----.---No hole---.---No hole----.
-magn. film plate------.-----Yes------.------No------.-----Yes-----.-----No------.-----Yes------.
-weight (nude)---------.-----415g-----.-----414g-----.-----401g----.-----412g----.-----406g-----.

Some particular remarks to come.


Edited by - Jacques M. on Apr 27 2020 08:39:25 AM
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Jacques M.
France
2392 Posts
Posted - Apr 27 2020 :  10:03:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, some remarks about these cameras.

-The s/n 200209 and 200977 represent the "classical" Red Flag, as shown everywhere, with a vulcanite with horizontal stripes (stretched) (can be seen too on very early 1f), main buttons with fine milling (not far from the 1a), shutterbox made of brass (iron on 1e "Berdsk, brass on early 1f), and the engraving considered as "correct".
Two light differences: two letters are missing on the cover of the 200209 (an omission), and that same camera has a yellow patch in the finder. Like all the TSVVS I know.

-About the milling of the main buttons of these two "genuine" Red Flag, it seems a bit less finer than on my Fed 1a s/n 1453. Diameters on this 1453: 18,6mm and 11,4mm.

-The 200898 has a cover with a correct engraving, but none of the other classical features. Considering the shutterbox and the film plate, it should be a 1d, s/n c. 115/150000. An interesting extra part: the frame counter is magnetic. That cannot be found before the 1e Berdsk, and perhaps the very late 1d. My idea: a correct Red Flag mounted with spare parts.

-The 200068 is beautiful, but the lettering does not correspond to the archetype. So, a fake, unless there were a second set of tools to engrave the cover.
The body was made with parts belonging to the 115/150000 1d series, like the 200898.

-The 3216 is obviously a fake. The tints of the cover and the upper plate are too different, and one can see the yelllow of the brass appearing under the chrome (impossible to shoot that). By its features, it could belong to the late 1d or the 1e series (s/n 150000-183xxx).
The s/n range chosen for this fake is really strange...

Tell me if you need something else, Christian.
Of course, comments are welcome!

Amitiés. Jacques.
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