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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
 Posted - May 11 2012 : 10:52:13 AM
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Hello,
I have had my Red Flag for some weeks. And looking for other pictures of that camera on the net, I am a bit surprised by the differences between these cameras: fake or variations due to factory difficulties ...?
So, perhaps we could put together what we know. When a camera is rare, it is difficult to compare it with the other items of the series...
First, a general view of this # 200209 Fed Red Flag:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 001.jpg
Next message about the cover.
Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
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David Tomlinson
RCCCUK
United Kingdom
208 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 02:25:09 AM
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Hi Jacques,
I have checked my Red Flag, and it certainly matches the description in Jean Loup Princelle's book. The wind and rewind knobs have much finer milling than the standard FED of the time. The body covering is much smoother and most importantly, the shutter housing is made of brass not aluminium. I hope this helps.
David. |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 10:12:16 AM
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Thanks, David. Of course it helps: the milling of the knos, the body covering and the brass shutter cage are certainly the main features common to all the Fed "Red Flag".
But I wonder if there are other common features. And if genuine variations can exist.
We know the factory had really important difficulties to restart the production in the years 1946-48. A possible series of 1e was probably mounted in 1946 at Kharkov with parts coming from Berdsk. After, it's the Red Flag. Was it made with parts made at Kharkov? Totally? Partially? Are there parts which can come from a prewar board ? If yes, one can find genuine variations. If no, fakes lie under them.
For example, the milling of the knobs.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 009.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 010.jpg
No doubt: it is finer than the on the 1c, d, e,f and g. It looks like the 1a and first 1b's. But I cannot decide if it is exactly the same or not. The (evident) question is: did they found 1a and b's buttons and put them on the Red Flags? Can we find other buttons on Red Flags which "seem" genuine? David, are the buttons of your RF exactly like mine?
I go on with other detailed pictures! |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 10:30:22 AM
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Now, the disconnecting button.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 003.jpg
I have not found in my prewar Feds such a coarse milling. It exists too on early Fed 1f: my 1f # 210921 has exactly the same, my # 215495 has a finer milling (and a slimmer button). We can suppose that this type of button was specially made for the RF and used after on 1fs.
On the RF like on all the prewar cameras and the first 1f, there is a hollow near this button:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 004.jpg
So, we can suppose that a RF without that hollow is not a genuine one!
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Edited by - Jacques M. on May 12 2012 10:34:40 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 10:49:36 AM
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The metallurgy of the cover is interesting. For example, the angles near the speed button.
On my RF, these angles seem blunt, much more than on the other RF I have seen on the net.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 002.jpg
On the other hand, JLP shows in his book the RF # 200161 with the same blunt angles. Does that mean something about metallurgy? A sub series of some RF? I don't know...
The other Feds of the same period (1e and f) have sharper angles.
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 11:04:14 AM
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The two last points (for me) seem common to all the genuine RF: the cover of the body and the brass shutter cage.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 008.jpg
One can find this cover with "horizontal" pattern only on the RF and the very early 1f. As for the shutter cage, brass was the rule till the # 110000/120000, then it was replaced by aluminium. After the RF, brass was used on 1f (very roughly till # 250000), then aluminium was re used.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 013.jpg
I have seen these two features on all the RF, except Alain's one which had an alu shutter box and a regular (1d type) body cover. It's interesting to know, as Alain had bought his RF at a time when it was not interesting to make fakes...
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Edited by - Jacques M. on May 12 2012 11:44:58 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2012 : 11:14:23 AM
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Well, I am now at the end of the pictures I had prepared for this topic.
I would be very happy if we could discuss about all that...
One more detail, probably the strangest: my RF has a yellow rangefinder. What about yours, David, Alexander...? I don't know other Fed with such a colour. But the TSVVS has it too! 
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 12 2012 11:17:01 AM |
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Alexander K.
AlexanderK
Germany
600 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2012 : 03:04:30 AM
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Thanks, Alexander for your pictures!
As I have said, I am a bit surprised too by the lack of the two letters.
The other interesting difference is the corners of the cover (soft on mine, sharp on yours).
For the buttons, it seems they are the same.
What about the shutter cage? Alu or brass? And about the rangefinder? Yellow or not?
Thanks again. Jacques. |
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Alexander K.
AlexanderK
Germany
600 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2012 : 04:18:41 AM
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Jacques,
shutter cage is brass, rangefinder spot is yellow.
If you need more photos, let me know.
Regards, Alexander |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2012 : 08:45:35 AM
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Great!
So, the Red Flag could be the only Fed to have a yellow rangefinder. The same as the TSVVS's... But two owners, it's not enough to make a rule...
Here, there are some more Red Flags. Curious, even if we consider that the factory had problems to restart the production...
http://hylee617.tripod.com/hylee617/russian/fed/fed1eftg.htm
Amitiés. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on May 17 2012 08:52:21 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2012 : 2:29:25 PM
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No news about the yellow colour of the rangefinder? 
Jacques. |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2013 : 7:25:45 PM
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While looking for new serials to add to the wiki I came across several cameras which seem a bit different than the ones shown here. Do you think they are original?
At DVD Collection:
#200680
#201702 with Sonnar
http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/1/5.htm
From hylee617:
#200006 "prototype" with notched finder window
#200202
http://hylee617.tripod.com/hylee617/russian/fed/fed1eftg.htm
What makes me wonder is that in both cases, the engravings of the two cameras shown together look the same yet the engravings at DVD are slightly different from the ones at hylee617.
Also - Vlad, could you link this thread to the corresponding wiki entry?
Regards,
Christian
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2013 : 09:54:24 AM
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It is very difficult to say if a Red Flag is genuine or not. In fact, it largely depends on what we will find in the Fed Berdsk topic...
If Red Flags were made of recovered parts, as I feel, no doubt we could admit some variations. But it is a personal idea, not even a theory...
Nevertheless, the engravings should probably be always the same, which excludes one of the Red Flags you show. As for the DVD's, the s/n 201702 looks interesting, with the belt (and the vulcanite) of an early 1c. Genuine made from early parts or not genuine? 
Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: more than 1000 posts, already... |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 21 2013 09:59:32 AM |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2007 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Aug 21 2013 : 2:26:27 PM
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Jacques
Congratulations for coming to the Family of the thousands...
kind Regards
LP |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2013 : 03:52:37 AM
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Thanks, Luiz, for your congratulations!
Happy you are the one to open the doors for me...
Christian, I think you won't be long to attain the 500 posts!
I know the NKAP you notice.
For me, there are at least two rules:
- the serial number must be between 200000 and 201800. No possible exception,
- the engravings must be the same. A notable point is the C (of CCCP) which must have a flat head.
I would have added the special vulcanite and the shutter box made of brass. But if NKAP-s were made from spare parts...
I will have a look at the wiki as soon as possible.
Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: the s/n 201702 has a central screw half hidden and the vulcanite of last 1b/early 1c. It was certainly made with parts of the 54xxx/60xxx series. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 23 2013 03:58:26 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2013 : 09:54:49 AM
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Christian,
I am OK with the wiki concerning the Red Flag. For the moment! But perhaps you are a bit too fast...
That said, the s/n 200006 is curious, with this cover never made by Fed. Borrowed to a Leica Couplex or III(F), as it seems.
Jacques. |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
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Yuri Boguslavsky
fedka
USA
244 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Oct 12 2013 : 10:57:26 PM
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| If more numbers are needed, I have a Red Flag #200990 |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2013 : 3:20:34 PM
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Thanks, Yuri!
Serials are always welcome.
Could you please tell us the lens s/n as well?
Some pictures of your camera would also be great, we still have only very few examples and they seem to differ a lot.
Regards,
Christian
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Edited by - Niko80 on Oct 13 2013 3:39:29 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2017 : 09:49:41 AM
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I have taken it to pieces, to know more about the camera. Especially if it belongs to a series of Fed, or if it was made from spare parts.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 200898.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 200898 25.JPG
Vulcanite, shutter box made of iron, idem for the press film which has a hole. Probably a camera of the 1d series, s/n between c. 115xxx/145xxx.
Other photos to follow.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 19 2017 10:03:36 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2017 : 10:20:03 AM
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http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 3 200898.JPG
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1982017_Fed NKAP 13 200898.JPG
The cover seems normal, compared to those I know. The typical letters seem good. And the serial number has the three first digits ("200")which slightly go up, like on other NKAP.
About the speed mechanism, there is no hole for the slow speeds. I don't know exactly when we find this hole. Anyway, the upper plate cannot belong to a 1b series (without hole for slow speeds) because of the centered screw, completely visible on the front.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Aug 19 2017 10:36:56 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Aug 19 2017 : 11:01:19 AM
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So, the camera is probably a "nearly pure" 1d. The s/n of the lens points towards that direction too (s/n 117836).
Is it a genuine NKAP?
It has been my guess at the beginning of this thread that besides the "classical series" of NKAP, workers had to use what they had to achieve the series of 1800 cameras.
A word more about the covers. This one has the same drawing of letterings as my NKAP s/n 200209. But the shape of the angle round the speed dial is different: sharp on the 200898, blunt on the 200209. That could mean that covers of different series were indistinctly used and reingraved...
I hope a discussion!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2017 : 08:21:58 AM
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Something more about the camera.
When I took it to pieces, all was very tight. I even damaged one of the four screws of the lensplate to remove it. The shutter was curved and non working due to age and non useness. I had to clean the mechanism. No doubt: the camera had not been opened during a very long time.
About the screws, I had the surprise to notice that some are magnetic and others are not, as if the workers had a box of used pell mell screws to mount the camera. Always concerning that question, the photo counter is magnetic too. I will have to check all my other Fed 1...
Questions and comments are welcome!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
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levonsa
levonsa
Russia
248 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Aug 21 2017 : 02:56:12 AM
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Thanks for your comments and photos, Alexey!
Just a remark concerning the press film.
I have checked them, and I can find press films which are magnetic and have a hole only on my cameras s/n 119792 and 127195. Before, the hole is there, but the press film is not magnetic. After, there is no more hole and the press film is magnetic. So, I think that this part belongs to a Fed 1d s/n c. 115/145xxx.
About the crown which fastens the cover and the accessory shoe, I think the one I have shown (with six holes) is regular in those numbers. What is the s/n of the camera where you have this crown with three holes? I will try to find the same on my cameras...
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
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Alfa2
Poland
349 Posts |
Posted - Oct 19 2018 : 4:15:03 PM
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To stabilize this belt of metal ? Is it moving ?
If it is moving sometimes there could have been problem to take off bottom plate because this was not possible to turn a lock. |
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jed
France
391 Posts
My Collection
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Oct 20 2018 : 05:35:18 AM
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Bravo, Jean! You are absolutely right.
I have just checked. The cup exactly fits the locking button of the cassette.
As I can suppose: when the bottom is put with the cassette inside, the copper plate presses on the locking button of the cassette. This movement frees the locking button, and the bottom plate can be closed.
But I am not inside to check!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Dec 16 2019 : 10:14:29 AM
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A new Red Flag here! And I am particularly happy, because that time, there is absolutely no doubt: it is a real fake!
Here it is:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/16122019_IMG_2439.JPG
Bad lens (violet coating with new scale of speeds), incorrect vulcanite, incorrect milling of buttons, etc. In fact, all the features of a 1d between s/n 110/15xxxx. But all that is probably not so important compared to the engraving of the cover...
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Jan 22 2020 : 2:44:02 PM
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No comment?
Another possible comparison with the s/n 3245, always on the hylee.617 site.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2212020_Fed NKAP fake.jpg
That time, the fake is evident...
In fact, this s/n 200068, and his "brothers", the s/n 200006 and 200202, certainly have an engraving which is too perfect, compared to the genuine Red Flags. I suspect it was made with modern tools, unless a there is a second set of tools which was used.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2020 : 09:03:52 AM
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A new fake of Red Flag soon here. The second type of fakes, for the Red Flags, with s/n in the 32xx range.
Here is a photo of the seller.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/442020_Fed NKAP 3216 1.jpg
It could be a brother of the s/n 3245 (cf my precedent post). I will tell more when I receive it.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2020 : 4:57:34 PM
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I see you have become an avid collector of NKAP fakes!
The history of these is interesting in itself, I wonder when they were made. Nowadays it's probably too expensive and people lack the skill and equipment. My guess would be 80s-90s?
Maybe we should distinguish the 2 types of probable fakes - big and small letters - in the wiki? |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2020 : 08:44:55 AM
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Ha! Thanks for your comment, Christian! I was feeling a bit alone on this thread...
Probably the fakes can help to identify the genuine cameras, when they belong to rare series. It's the case here: we have two probable series of fakes, with a stronger identity than the genuine ones! Now, I am nearly sure that the only certain parameter is the engraving of the cover.
I am going to complete the wiki.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 21 2020 : 07:41:07 AM
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I have just received the fake Red Flag # 3216.
Nothing really particular. Very probably, it was originally a Fed 1d (or perhaps a 1e), which is confirmed by the s/n of the lens: 158001. Something strange about the lens: though with a prewar scale of diaphs (3,5 - 4,5 - 6,3 etc), it is coated.
I hoped that the internal date could help to identify the body, but it is only half visible (29/?).
A photo of the cover, with the engraving:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2142020_IMG_0091.JPG
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Apr 25 2020 : 08:55:11 AM
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Jacques, do any of your obvious fakes have traits we consider "original"?
What about vulcanite, milling and yellow viewfinder, shutterbox?
If so, could you make list or table with all your Red Flag cameras, "original" and "fake" and their traits for comparison?
About the coated lens, it's relatively easy for a repairman to replace the lenses, I had this done in one of my FED1 I use for photography.
What makes me wonder the most is the fine milling. Do we know that these parts are truly identical with FED1'a' or are they exclusively made for the Red Flag?
It is hard to imagine why exactly 'a' parts should have either been shipped to Berdsk in larger quantities or survived the war in Kharkow. Both makes no sense and we're talking about quantities of many hundred of not thousand. Then again many RF seem to be made from parts of relatively early cameras. Maybe they kept those parts in the factory. who knows?
Also the yellow viewfinder - where did it come from?
By the way, my FED 1'a' #1233 has a yellow viewfinder as well. Was this seen in any other early FED1'a'? |
Edited by - Niko80 on Apr 25 2020 09:16:05 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2020 : 10:39:27 AM
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None of my two obvious fakes has what we consider as "original" features.
About your demand, I can compare my Red Flags under the following parameters:
- vulcanite,
- milling of main buttons,
- milling of releasing button,
- shutterbox
- film plate,
- engraving,
- magnetic properties of the two plates and the cover.
Do you see something else?
About the milling of the main buttons, it is fine on Red Flags. But not so fine as on my 1a-s. I cannot say if this type of milling had been used previously on the NKVD-s: problems of sight. In fact, that question is poorly documented: one usually counts two types of milling (fine and coarse); there are probably at least four: "ultra" fine (1a), fine (1b), coarse (from 1c) and the Red Flag one, between the 1a and the early 1b as it seems to me. But all that must be checked.
Concerning the rangefinder, all my RF have a normal one, except my #200209 (yellow). As to say why... |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2020 : 12:32:41 PM
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Yes, that would be great!
I could think of chrome properties of the top plate (seems coarse on the ones we deem original).
If you have an accurate scale, weighting the cameras wihout lens and spool would probably be interesting too. And maybe - if you can say - the type of FED you think was used for the body.
Regarding the milling I had forgotten it is also found in early b, I will check mine and provide pictures.
We should make an extra thread as it concerns different types of cameras.
Good macro photos should help, apart from that all I can think of is measuring the diameter of the knobs with a caliper but I have none right now.
About the yellow rangefinder, no idea why it is on my early FED1'a' either. The rings are original brass. If we assume the Red Flag was made from parts these yellow pieces must have come from somewhere. But in a single camera it may as well be some later modification and repair. Doesn't TSVVS also have yellow rangefinders?
Well, one step at a time, I am preparing further thoughts on the Red Flag to post in the coming days but I'd like an overview over the properties of the cameras first... |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2020 : 07:44:29 AM
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So, a short comparison between my 5 "so called" Red Flags.
-----------------------.-----200068---.-----200209---.----200898---.----200977---.----3216------.
-vulcanite-------------.----1d type---.---stretched--.---1d type---.---stretched-.---1d type----.
-milling main buttons--.-----coarse---.-----fine-----.---coarse----.----fine-----.----coarse----.
-diam. main buttons----.--18,5mm-12mm-.-18,7mm-12mm--.-18,5mm-12mm-.-18,4mm-12mm-.-18,4mm-12mm--.
-milling disc. button--.---very fine--.----coarse----.--very fine--.---coarse----.--very fine---.
-engraving on cover----.-----bad------.---correct----.---correct---.---correct---.----bad-------.
-magn. cover-----------.-----No-------.------No------.-----No------.-----No------.-----No-------.
-magn. upper plate-----.-----No-------.------No------.-----No------.-----No------.-----Yes------.
-magn. baseplate-------.-----No-------.------No------.-----No------.-----No------.-----Yes------.
-shutterbox------------.----steel-----.----brass-----.----steel----.----brass----.----steel-----.
-film plate------------.-----hole-----.---No hole----.----hole-----.---No hole---.---No hole----.
-magn. film plate------.-----Yes------.------No------.-----Yes-----.-----No------.-----Yes------.
-weight (nude)---------.-----415g-----.-----414g-----.-----401g----.-----412g----.-----406g-----.
Some particular remarks to come.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Apr 27 2020 08:39:25 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2020 : 10:03:38 AM
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So, some remarks about these cameras.
-The s/n 200209 and 200977 represent the "classical" Red Flag, as shown everywhere, with a vulcanite with horizontal stripes (stretched) (can be seen too on very early 1f), main buttons with fine milling (not far from the 1a), shutterbox made of brass (iron on 1e "Berdsk, brass on early 1f), and the engraving considered as "correct".
Two light differences: two letters are missing on the cover of the 200209 (an omission), and that same camera has a yellow patch in the finder. Like all the TSVVS I know.
-About the milling of the main buttons of these two "genuine" Red Flag, it seems a bit less finer than on my Fed 1a s/n 1453. Diameters on this 1453: 18,6mm and 11,4mm.
-The 200898 has a cover with a correct engraving, but none of the other classical features. Considering the shutterbox and the film plate, it should be a 1d, s/n c. 115/150000. An interesting extra part: the frame counter is magnetic. That cannot be found before the 1e Berdsk, and perhaps the very late 1d. My idea: a correct Red Flag mounted with spare parts.
-The 200068 is beautiful, but the lettering does not correspond to the archetype. So, a fake, unless there were a second set of tools to engrave the cover.
The body was made with parts belonging to the 115/150000 1d series, like the 200898.
-The 3216 is obviously a fake. The tints of the cover and the upper plate are too different, and one can see the yelllow of the brass appearing under the chrome (impossible to shoot that). By its features, it could belong to the late 1d or the 1e series (s/n 150000-183xxx).
The s/n range chosen for this fake is really strange...
Tell me if you need something else, Christian.
Of course, comments are welcome!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Apr 27 2020 : 4:34:29 PM
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Excellent, thank you, Jacques!
So we have 3 varieties - the 'classic' RF, the 1d-type and the 4-digit with large engraving.
Interesting, I did not know about the magnetic frame counter. So all others are non-magnetic?
We need to summarize these features for each FED1 type / serial range some day, preferrably in the wiki but aso in one thread for all FED1.
I am a bit puzzeled about the high weight of #200068 though- 10g more than the other cameras with steel shutterbox - what could be the cause?
About the milling of the buttons - it seems the small disconnector knob with its coarse engraving is unique to classic RF, right? It seems more coarse and more crudely made than the ones in FED1'a' also these buttons are very different in diameter though the diamond shape milling is the same in your and Alexander Kneller's RF. Could you post your early FED1'f' for comparison?
About the main buttons - have you compared them to early FED1'b'?
Also take look on the curved arrows on top of the buttons indicating rewind direction - They look diffferent in FED'a' and 'b' though the millings seems almost indistinguishable in my cameras.
If we focus on the 'classic' RF with the stretched vulcanite and brass shutter box, we see these were not randomly assembled from some spare parts. They seem to have highly specific features.
Have you checked for engraved dates in the shutter cage of all cameras? It would be interesting to know from which serial range these brass shutter cages came from.
So film plates are non-magnetic without hole. Whre did they come from? Which other FED1 have those?
As for top plates, it really seems we have both the ones with blunt and sharp edges. Am I correct that the ones with blunt edges also have a much more coarse chroming finish than the sharp ones?
Any idea from which serial range those blunt top plates could be from?
Probably a lot of work but maybe we can determine from which sort of parts the classic RF were assembled and which were likely made from scratch.
More thoughts about the non-typical RF cameras next time... |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2020 : 11:07:38 AM
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Well, some precisions after your questions.
Concerning the film plate:
- brass with hole from my # 1453 to 104370
- some incertitude then
- steel/hole from c. 120000 to c. 150000,
- steel/no hole up to the end of the Berdsks
- steel/no hole for the first 1f.
Concerning the shutterbox:
- brass from the beginning to c. 105000
- some incertitude, then
- steel up to the end of the Berdsks.
- brass for the first 1f.
The "incertitude" corresponds of course to the period during which the old and new parts were used simultaneously.
Concerning the internal date inside the RF:
- 3216: 29/?
- 200068: 31/?
- 200209: nothing visible
- 200898: 25/?
- 200977: nothing visible.
Nothing visible: I am pretty sure for the 200209. I should dismount the 200977 to be certain (I won't do it). No chance about the months: they are just on the place erased by the cartridge...
About the disconnecting button: the milling is the same (coarse) for the classical RF and the early 1f (210064, 210455, 210921). But the diameters are different: 3,6mm on 1f-s and 4,4mm on RF-s.
I will see if I can answer some other of your questions.
Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2020 : 11:52:12 AM
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An addition about the frame counter, magnetic on the #200898.
On the # 200898, it is easy to "decide" if the frame counter is magnetic or not, because the upper plate, just below, is not.
It is much more difficult on cameras where the upper plate is magnetic, like the 1e "Berdsks" as I never know for sure whether it is the counter or the plate which reacts to the magnet... Of course, a partial dismount would be the solution. But I am very reluctant now.
Anyway, this counter does not look like an ordinary Fed's. If the pins are at the right position, the metal is much more bright: nickel? |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Apr 28 2020 : 6:27:05 PM
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Things are becoming a bit clearer, at least I think.
To me it seems the classic Red Flags are much closer to early 1f than to any pre-war NKVD parts.
Which means - they were probably not made with pre-war spare parts but - at least largely - with post- war newly designed and produced material.
Think about it - the brass shutter box without engraved dates, the non-magnetic film plate without holes, the milling of the knobs, even the vulcanite, everything seems unique and remained the same even after they relocated back to Kharkow.
Also if I remember correctly we are told the spare parts evacuated from Kharkow and tools never made it to Berdsk so they had to re-engineer everything in 1945-46. This saves us from explaining why seemingly mostly b/c parts but no d/e parts were used for the classic RF as one would expect. What if these are not early FED spare parts but newly made?
If the blunt-edged top plates really are unique they could be early attempts to machine these parts until they managed to return to the exact specifications. You even see tool-marks on some of them.
Look at what I found, I think this is substantial:
serial ___ top plate _ finish _______ anomalities
200146 _ blunt ____ coarse chrome
200161 _ blunt(?) _ ?
200209 _ blunt ____ coarse chrome
200333 _ blunt ____ ?
200347 _ blunt ____ coarse chrome __ coarse vulcanite
----------------------------------
200535 _ sharp ____ shiny chrome
200600 _ sharp ____ shiny chrome
200680 _ sharp ____ shiny chrome ?
200898 _ sharp ____ shiny chrome ___ 1d
200977 _ sharp ____ shiny chrome ?
201668 _ sharp ____ shiny chrome ?
201702 _ sharp ____ shiny chrome ___ 1c
More additions would be welcome!
It seems we have 2 versions of the Red Flag top plate
a) up to 200347 - unique blunt edges at speed dial, very coarse chrome
b) from 200535 - more or less normal shape of top plate with finer chrome.
I haven't looked at the dents around the disconnector in detail but things are way less chaotic or random than they seem once you only look at the RF with the classic features.
So my current theory:
RF was produced in Berdsk (Princelle's passport, photo of cameras in Berdsk)
http://ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1782013_fed%20photo.jpg
No (or few) camera parts and next to no workers ever made it to Berdsk and no FED cameras were produced during WII.
In 45-46 they started from scratch, reconstructing all the parts and tools, some not in the same way as previous models (rewind knobs, film plate, probably shutter box). At the beginning they redesigned the top plates with blunt edges and had problems with chrome. Either they later received unengraved spare top plates or - I think this is more likely - they got better tools to better reverse-engineer the original ones.
They made the majority (Princelle at least tells us about a passport for 201280) of RF at Berdsk.
After returning to Kharkow either some late RF were assembled or - more likely - they made early 1f with the parts they still had until they ran out. Then they started to produce later 1f with the new machining tools in Kharkow, substantially changing the look of the cameras.
Questions to answer:
.)What are significant differences between RF and early 1f?
.)Is there a difference in pre-war brass shutter box and RF / 1f?
.)Is there a difference in pre-war top plates, late RF and early 1f?
.)Where did the lenses for early RF / late RF / early 1f come from?
The classic type (a) with blunt edges seems to have c/d lenses, later lenses in the wiki have 4 digits like on 1f. But we need more lens serials for that.
I already asked Alexey but got no reply To bad, he has so many interesting cameras and lists on his page #200026 (coll. V. Khalatov / Russia). I'd like to see a picture, it is said to have a strange coarse vulcanite like 200347 and some early 1f. Who else could be asked for details about their RF?
Also the Berdsk thread seems highly relevant to the RF and early 1f topic and should be linked here.
https://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=362 |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 29 2020 : 09:46:55 AM
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Your explanation between blunt and sharp edges is interesting.
Concerning the vulcanite, we can find on the Red Flags and the very early 1f exactly the same two types: stretched, and "snowflake" (or other names), visible on Alexey site. We can find too some rare 1f with a circled shutter release button, the rule being a non-circled one from the beginning of the 1f series.
That said, my s/n 210064 is entirely normal... |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2020 : 08:09:22 AM
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Jacques, can you compare the brass shutterboxes of FED NKVD, RF und FED1f?
Maybe there is something subtle. Compare the shutterbox top plate when looking into the lens mount, behind the rangefeeler. The position of the screw there varies between FED1 series.
Until contrary evidence surfaces I am pretty convinced that most if not all parts of the classic RF were made post-war either in Berdsk or Kharkow and are not pre-war spare-parts from early FED1. To me it makes no sense that the factory in Kharkow had thousands of brass shutterboxes stockpiled while switching to metal during the FED1'd' series.
Not just enough for the RF but als for early 1f and some FED Zorki? Meanwhile no late 'e' parts are used even though these were the most recent? Even worse to explain the fine milled buttons. From FED'1a/b'? I don't believe any of it to be honest but maybe there is something to prove me wrong?
A list of RF parts not seen anywhere pre-war and definitely newly made would be helpful.
.)early top plate with blunt angles and poor chrome
.)vulcanite pattern
.)disconnector button
.)non-magnetic film plate without hole
.)main buttons with fine milling(?)
Of course the inner workings of the speed selector and rangefinder would be highly interesting but I would not want to take a classic RF apart either...
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2020 : 08:20:52 AM
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Frankly, I am not in the possibility to draw conclusions concerning the parts which were used to make the RF... My feeling is that it would have been easier to use 1d/1e parts, when possible and if they existed. And for the rest, re-make the missing parts.
My RF # 200977 (my "most" classic RF) has an interesting belt, with curious irregularities on the area in contact with the baseplate. Visibly, the casting of alloy was not simple for this camera, and it cannot belong to the 1d/1e series. So certainly it was specially made. My # 200209 has some identical irregularities on the same zone, but less sharp. Nothing on the three other ones. Perhaps a discriminant feature?
About some other features:
- the shutter box has always that non-bright paint on the "classic" RF, with a type of screws well shown by Alexey. It's the same on my Fed Arsenal, but with a magnetic shutter box. All that is completely different on the 1f, including the early ones: bright paint and chrome screws and bolts.
- the vulcanite, "romashka" or stretched on classic RF and very first 1f. I have never seen these coverings on other Feds, including the Fed Arsenal.
For the moment, it's all I can say. About my feeling, I think too that it should not be very easy to make a series of working shutter boxes, from nothing. I have read somewhere that Fed had always 12/15000 complete sets of parts in advance. The problem is perhaps to know where they were in 1946...
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on May 21 2020 08:25:20 AM |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2020 : 07:09:33 AM
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This is still interesting!
If you find the time please provide a photo of the irregularities on the belt.
Anyway we can safely dismiss the hypothesis that Red Flag was fully built from pre-war NKVD spare parts from the FED factory. Clearly at least some parts had to be re-engineered post-war and we have evidence this was not without problems.
The brass shutter box is still the most interesting part for me. So the RF one is different from early 1f. This is not surprising if we assume RF was made in Berdsk from early-production parts while 1f was the first post-war mass production back at Kharkow.
Again, not impossible that FED had all the necessary spare parts but I find it extremely hard to believe they had so many b/c parts shipped to Berdsk but no or few d/e parts. Unfortunately there is little solid documentation about the fate of the parts but it seems consensus now at least the vast majority never made it to Berdsk but was stored elsewhere during the war and then distributed to KMZ/Arsenal while FED started from scratch.
Currently my opinion is that if Princelle's passport is correct, most likely all RF were built in Berdsk. It is unreasonable to assume FED continued to build a few hundred identical cameras after moving all machinery to Kharkow before switching to 1f. This is simply not economical and the time of war turmoil or urgent military demand was over at that time. It is more logical to assume FED started producing 1f in Kharkow with new machinery and a new logo.
The only way to solve this would probably be checking camera / lens serial ratio and see if we find any changes but we have too far serials for that. However it seems all 'classic' RF have a 4-digit lens serial. We should pay more attention to these lenses as well, I feel. Do they show any oddities compared to NKVD and 1f lenses?
Also my personal opinion is that 'non-classic' Red Flag are not original factory work but a later attempt to save the RF top plate and sell it to collectors. Surely it was known a RF top was something rare even in the early days of camera collecting. While I have no proof, the random serial distribution and the use of seemingly original NKVD-bodies except for the top plate gives some evidence. Also it seems clear the factory was able to build characteristic 'classic' RF right from the start, even if with some lower-quality parts. There is no reason to assume they had to cannibalize used NKVD cameras randolmly in between regular production.
Again all this is just my opinion based on the current state of our knowledge which is still not great. And of course open to debate. I'd be delighted if anyone could disprove my hypotheses. |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2020 : 09:17:33 AM
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Here is a photo showing the main irregularity. I have others if necessary.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/2752020_IMG_0139.JPG
Just a remark about the early 1f. I have several of them, and they really have beautiful covers, with very fine and precise engravings. One feels that the tools are new! But I wonder about the "flower" and "stretched" vulcanite on some of these early 1f. That means that we had a transport too from Berdsk to Kharkov. So, why not for other parts? Unhappily, I don't own one of these rare 1f to compare with the others.
Now, that the non-classic Red Flags were not originally made at the factory, it is well possible. But I am a bit doubtful, as the tradition was rather to use old parts with new ones, when possible. Only a feeling.
Anybody else to debate?
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2020 : 2:36:41 PM
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Thank you, good find!
So we can assume this camera body was a new construction as well.
I was wondering too about the erratic snowflake vulcanite. How is this pattern produced and how is it applied to the camera? Does anyone know about the technical process and machinery?
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1036 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 27 2020 : 11:00:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Niko80
Surely it was known a RF top was something rare even in the early days of camera collecting.
Well, around the millennium the value of USSR FRs was not much in the FSU-countries. It was easy to buy them for 20 euros in Estonia. And none of the sellers (pawn shops, antique shops etc) knew if one version was more valuable. If I would only have known how the value will grow, I would have bought them all...
Best regards,
Juhani |
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Niko80
Austria
174 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2021 : 10:13:42 AM
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Another year has already passed. Unfortunately I have not come up with anything new regarding the FED NKAP but I noticed Jacques changed the wiki.
It used to be:
201759 __ 01000/132 ___________ private
now this lens is used by another camera.
201657 __ 01000/132 ___________ eBay
What caused this change?
Interestingly the new pairing fits way better into my regression line. It is an excellent fit with a R² of 0,94 (1 is max).
What we see here are 13 pairs of FED NKAP cameras with a 4-digit #0XXX lens. One from Jacques was omitted as he states the pairing is not original and a macro lens.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/462021_FED NKAP camera-lens 06_21.png
For the 2nd NKAP batch from about #200.500 onward these lenses apparently were paired with cameras in a specific way.
We would expect camera serials to start at 200.000 and lens serials at 1 and then roughly rise 1:1. For every camera serial the lens serial rises per one on average with more or less equal outliers grouping left and right as they poured together batches of cameras and lenses.
But obviously this cannot be true as quite some Red Flag cameras come with different lenses.
Now while the 13 cam-lens pairs with reasonable 3-4digit numbers group very well along a regression line pretty much like with the FED-S, things do not work as expected. Apparently it takes more than one camera serial numbers for the lens serial number to rise by one!
The blue line is the calculated regression for our samples - with a slope of 0.64 it lies between 2:1 and 3:2. Assuming 2:1, camera serial rises 200, lens serial rises only 100. Clearly these lenses were not paired randomly with cameras.
But this only works for the 2nd NKAP batch with sharp-edged top plates and shiny chrome from around #200.500 onward. There are only two samples for the first batch and they are unusually high lens serial numbers for these early cameras. Curiously the regression line pretty much hits zero on both axes, so if we moved back to camera #200.000 in this pairing scheme of batch2 we would theoretically arrive at lens #0001. But in the real world, the 'primitive' batch1 with the blunt edged top plate and dull chrome up to about #200.500 behaves differently.
So what happened here?
I have no idea. We see something like this in the FED-S where roughly every 10th camera was picked to get paired with a 50/2 lens - at a constant ratio from mid 'c' to late 'e'.
With at least the 2nd batch of Red Flags it seems only every 2nd camera was paired with this type of lens, or 2 out of 3, or a mixture which changed over time. But not every camera.
Remember we seem to have 2 Red Flag batches - up until about #200.500 the blunt edged rangefinder housing with coarse chrome and afterwards the normal sharp-edged one with better chrome. It is possible something regarding lens-pairing changed in between, we currently have a big hole there and early data is very poor.
Still I cannot explain what is going on in the 2nd batch from 200.800 onward. Obviously they produced all serials, we see odd and even last numbers. So the only explanation is - they produced cameras in very small batches and not every one but only every second or 2 out of 3 were paired with this type of lens. The others received either other lenses or none at all. Indeed we see a number of cameras with higher-number 4digit lenses and some early ones with NKVD lenses. No idea if these are original but it makes some sense that they could not keep up with lens production. Making glass and grinding/polishing lenses is a big deal, way more than machining camera parts.
But again I cannot explain how they managed to retain the lens-camera ratio other than 1:1 over considerable time (pairs group along a straight line), not in the Red Flag and absolutely not in the FED-S. But it seems they had a well working system involving small batches of a few dozen cameras/lenses. Also for both FED-S and Red Flag it seems the pairing got tighter in later version while being more random in the beginning.
We just don't know how this was achieved or above all - why?
Alternative hypothesis:
The lens:camera serial ratio for 2nd batch is indeed roughly 1:1 and we are just seeing a lot of outliers.
Things would look like this.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/462021_FED NKAP camera-lens 06_21 1-1.png
Impossible? Certainly not. Maybe the ratio was unstable an the beginning and flattened out towards the end. We saw something similar in FED-S'c'. Curiously this way the regression line reaches zero (or the hypothetical lens #0001) close to #200.500 where we expect the 2nd batch to start. This however excludes this lens type from the first batch meaning the two samples we see there are not original. Not improbable.
We only have 13 samples out of about 2000 produced Red Flag cameras, that's 0.65%
For the 2nd batch, omitting the beginning, 10 samples out of about 1000 which is 1% and not bad for such statistics. And these 10 form a pretty straight line to me.
Whatever happened, the take-home message is:
The 4-digit 0XXX lenses are most likely the original ones produced for the Red Flag. We cannot say if others were used in the factory. Probably at least in the 1st batch. The 2nd batch looks much more refined and behaves differently so frankly I would not be surprised if they only managed to produce these lenses for the 2nd batch and used other ones for the first, or none at all at time of production.
I remain sceptical about the entire 'reuse of pre-war parts' theory. It seems clear now that the parts for the 1st batch of Red Flag were built from scratch after the war. They did not reuse any significant FED1 parts - most likely because none of these made it to Berdsk.
My best guess is that they built the first batch of 500 cameras (mostly) without lenses as lens production lagged behind. Maybe they outfitted some cameras with old FED lenses they managed to acquire for display but organized production most likely only started with the refined 2nd batch. Which explains why the two 4-didig lens serials in the 1st batch cameras we know are unusually high. They were paired later - but maybe still at the factory during batch2 production when they managed to make lenses.
It's a shame we are still missing so many lens serial numbers. Should we at least add the ones we have to the wiki now, Jacques? |
Edited by - Niko80 on Jun 04 2021 10:20:18 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2021 : 10:54:08 AM
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Delighted to see you back, Christian!
For the changing of the lens # 01000/132 now on camera # 201657, previously on 201759, it's my own fault: I mixed numbers when recopying my listing. Hem...
Please, complete the wiki with the numbers we both have. It would be regrettable not to add them and they certainly can give some more light.
Now, I read cautiously your work. Thanks!!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Jun 09 2021 : 04:22:00 AM
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I have just bought one of these 0xxx lenses (in fact, the #0582), to compare with other Industar 10, when it is here...
Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2021 : 08:50:43 AM
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Here is a photo of the lens # 0582, just received, and not yet cleaned (!)
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/872021_IMG_0392.JPG
It seems that the original Red Flags could have been appaired with lenses with a 0xxx serian number. So, if the owners of Red Flags could post photos of their lenses, so that we compare...
Thanks! Jacques.
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
869 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 29 2024 : 5:21:10 PM
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Jacques,
I'll blow the dust off the thread :-)
I now also have a Red Flag, serial number 200214. The engravings on the top look original, the shutter housing is made of brass. The lens has the number 566 engraved on it and the rangefinder spot is yellow. But it has a normal housing with the normal vulcanite like later ones.
I will take pictures of the disassembly soon, when I have reassembled the Zorki 3.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
869 Posts
My Collection
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2024 : 10:29:02 AM
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Very happy to know it's you who got it, Ulrich! And thanks for the photos.
I have no doubt too that the cover is original. The rest of your camera is a 1f, by your photos and those of the seller. Vulcanite, release button (not circled), speedbox in brass, nuts in white metal, etc, all seems borrowed to an early 1f.
The date inside (30/12/49) is very interesting. To complete it, I have found in my data:
- the 1f # 220722 with the lens # 750: 21/11/49 inside
- the 1f # 221187 with the lens # 530: 29/11/49 inside.
So, your body could have a number around 222000, with a corresponding lens (your number 566).
Once more time, we cannot be sure. But it seems that a number of Fed Red Flag were originally made in Berdsk with the "historical" parts. Others were mounted with available parts: 1d, 1e. And, for some reasons (probably lack of material), the remaining covers had to wait for the recovery of Kharkiv to be put on 1f bodies...
Thanks for this post, Ulrich! We are making progress!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Apr 01 2024 10:31:41 AM |
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
869 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Apr 01 2024 : 3:43:25 PM
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Jacques,
thanks for the answer. When I disassembled the camera, I noticed that the repair (the replacement cloths) was done a long time ago. The new cloths were cut out with scissors and a lot of dirt had already accumulated in the camera.
So it could be a 1f that came from the factory like this. It makes little sense to put an RF cover on a repaired 1f, because if the RF had been broken, you could have repaired it instead of using a repaired 1f.
However, we'll never find out.
By the way, I left the cloths in, they are lightproof and still supple. And the red stitching looks cool ;-)
Now I've cleaned it, relubricated it and reassembled it, it's running really well again.
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
Edited by - uwittehh on Apr 01 2024 5:55:42 PM |
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Ulrich W.
uwittehh
Germany
869 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Apr 02 2024 : 10:26:46 AM
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Jacques,
I habe inspected other FEDs and found this numbers on the shutter box:
FED Berdsk:
- 176810, lens 137814: 28.II (no year)
- 180496, lens 154822: 24.VII (no year)
- 182433, lens 105593: 5.VIII (no year)
Are any FED Berdsk known with a year?
FED 1f:
- 231581 (which was for CLA here): 10.VI.50
- 232172, lens 9638: 24.VI.50. Here it is interesting that the number is on the same place as on my RF and there is the same character (an A?)in front of the number.
- 242355 (no lens): 20.V.50
- 288327, lens 7483: 12.II.52
According to my list I also own the 292626 with lens 9946, but I havn't found it ;-)
Ulrich
http://fotos.cconin.de |
Edited by - uwittehh on Apr 02 2024 10:27:49 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2657 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2024 : 05:31:30 AM
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Ulrich,
I have never seen a 1e with a year scratched on the speedbox. Anyway, there are only the day and the month on my 10 Fed 1e. Idem for my 5 RF (2 fakes): no year.
It's a bit more complex for the 1f.
- No year at the beginning (my 5 early 1f in the 210xxx range)
- 25-VI-48 or 49 (???) for the 215495,
- 14-VII-50 for the 232140. With an "A" before the date, like on your 232172.
I have not looked at my following 1f.
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Topic |
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Fed Red Flag
