FED Berdsk - strange lens serial no

Hello,

today a nice FED Berdsk arrived here. As I have read in the Wiki numbers above 180.000 seem to be built in Berdsk, mine has 182433. So it is a nice find :-)

One question about the serial number of the lens. I seems to have two serial numbers... how could that be? Or what do the numbers mean?

Look at the picture, there is one on the right side (56312) and one on the left side that is really strange engraved (1054593). Does anyone has an idea?



Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Ulrich!
Congratulations for this eBerdsk !
You are right: as far as we know, we guess that serial numbers after c. 180xxx were made (or mounted) in Berdsk.
But I never saw such a number as yours...

My eBerdsk serial# 182912 has the lens n° 172513. Perhaps (probably?) it's not the right one: it is strange to have such a difference between the two serial numbers: body and lens.

Anyway, we don't know exactly what happened during these 1941-1948 years. And we know much less about lenses than bodies... Probably we have two numberings for lenses: the former one, corresponding more or less to the pre WW2 bodies. And possibly some "local" new numbers: yours could be an example...?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

thanks for your opinion. I think, the FED Berdsk is one of the cameras we know only very little about today. But it's nice to find them in such a condition, here are two pictures after I have CLA'ed it:





Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Nice job on the CLA Ulrich looks very good indeed

Samsung GX-10,too many Russian Lenses, A lot of Zenit, some Yashica,and a Pentax Body also finally a Minox35GT

Has anyone established any way of identifying a Berdsk assembled FED other than by the serial number? Even going by the serial numbers there still seems to be a lot of uncertainty. Can we be sure that all cameras with serial numbers from 180000 to 199999 were assembled at Berdsk? Can we also be sure that cameras with serial numbers below 179999 were assembled at Kharkov?

David.

As far as I know, there is no way to tell where the cameras were assembled. I think there are passports that were filled in and stamped in Berdsk, but I have always thought that does not mean the camera was assembled there.

If no parts were made at Bersk, then I believe it would be almost impossible to tell exactly where a camera was assembled unless some historical documentation from some official resource, mentioning serial numbers and assembly, were to be discovered.

Princelle states that a few hundred cameras were assembled from spare parts but that most of the tooling, production machines and in-process cameras never make it to Berdsk and are redirected elsewhere and that FED management are not informed as to where these things are sent.

Also, Princelle says that a selection of FED technicians are secretly delegated to another Siberian location, probably to assemble and produce from scrtach cameras needed for the Army.

So, unless there is other information that I am not aware of, I don't see how we can have an idea that over 180,000 is from Berdsk. It seems that the highest serial number on our WIKI is # 183892. And so if Princelle is correct that "a few hundred" were assembled at Berdsk, then different assumptions could possibly be made about the serial numbers.

Regards, Bill

No way to be sure, as Bill says.

Nevertheless, in our discussions, we had found an S type e serial # 180024 with its passport dated 31 VIII 1941 and printed in Kharkov (DVD collection). We had concluded that this camera had been made in Kharkov, and the preceeding ones too. But the passport could have been filled in Kharkov and carried with the body to Berdsk (or elsewhere), of course.
About cameras between 184xxx and 199999, it seems they never existed: no trace anywhere, except in the datas.

Amitiйs. Jacques.
PS: the # 180024 is actually for sale on eBay!

Sometimes I have wondered if there may be internal differences to parts between cameras made in Kharkov and Berdsk, due to something like parts ran out in Berdsk and had to be made by hand or on different machines. Maybe, if so, they would be detectable by someone who could disassemble cameras and make comparisons.

Also, it would probably be worth comparing, on a microscopic level (or at least under large magnification) examples of the actual engravings on a known Kharkov example and also a very late example ... something like serial numbers # 18300 which would possibly be the most likely candidate for assembly in Berdsk (even this would be assuming that some cameras were actually engraved in Berdsk and not all of them in Kharkov). This would be easier to do than the internal exam of all parts.

Regards, Bill

Bill,

I have disassembled 2 FED Berdsk, the one here in the thread (No. 182433) and my other (No. 176810). There was only one difference, the 182433 has a hole in the top plate of the body near the "B" (a hole like in a Zorki 3 for the long speed mechanism), the other doesn't have this hole. I have seen the hole on many FED's before, I think these are the body plates for the planned FED B, that was only built in small quantities.

Both Berdsk I have diassembled are equal in other aspects, all parts seem to be at the same quality level. The engraving on the top looks the same, only on the 182433 it is not so deep engraved, lokks a bit lighter, but I think this is the normal variation from the different enraving persons.

The main difference is the lens (as shown in the first picture) I have never seen such an odd numbering. But the lens is easy to exchange so you can never be sure if it is the original one (and I have no papers for that camera). By the way the camera was delivered with a FED case in brick design with only one strap on the back to close it.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

To get back to your original point about the strange extra numbering on your cameras' lens.... maybe it is a military serial number that was added. To me it looks to be of a slightly different type style on the "5", "1", & "3" .... but maybe it is just the lighting in the photo. But, I have never seen this kind of extra number.

I would not think that such a development as a hole for a slow speed dial would be developed only for the cameras made in Berdsk as they were probably not in research and development mode while there. Maybe before the move to Berdsk some of these plates were made for future use, and then shipped there as well.

It is a beautiful example in great condition Ulrich! I would think that if some cameras were assembled in Berdsk, your new one may be a good candidate since the serial number is so high.

Regards, Bill

I see that Ulrich also owns a Berdsk with a "lower" serial number. I own one with #178XXX which happens to be an "S" version. Are these models scattered throughout the series?

Also, what about the fact that the Berdsk was issued with an F2.0 Lens? Is that true?

Steve

Hi Steve,

I think that only the FED-S Berdsk was issued with the f2.0 lens ... the other model with 500th as highest speed have the a regular lens. It does seem that the FED-S models are scattered through the series with no real specific serial numbers that can be related to each other.

Regards, Bill

Hi Ulrich,

I also have a Berdsk that has a hole near B, and a speed dial with a top 1/1000 speed. S/N of the camera is 179734.

Kind Regards,

Zhang

Hello all,
I must say that I share David's view. There is much confusion about what is a "Berdsk" and what isn't. I find difficult to imagine that Fed had already assembled each camera numbered between 174,001 to 183,000 at Kharkov before September 1941 and the evacuation of the factory without having first assembled cameras numbered 173,600 to 174,000.
When reading this section in Princelle there are some obvious mistakes with the numbering. For example JLP says that, (2nd edition page 95) Fed type 1d were still being made beyond number 180,000, up until August 1941, and that several hundred 1d bodies numbered between 174,000 and 178,000 were assembled at Berdsk during 1941, and 1942. Personally I have never seen a type 1d numbered higher than 173,000. By this time type 1e engraving was being applied to the cameras.
My conclusion is that any camera numbered between 173,000 and 199,999 which has type 1e engraving may or may not have been assembled in Berdsk. As things stand we just have no way of knowing for sure.
JLP also states that "up to apparently 1,000 units are produced", (at Berdsk). So if 400 were produced between numbers 173,600 and 174,000, by logic it means that only six hundred hundred of the cameras produced from 183,000 onwards could have been assembled at Berdsk, and therefore any camera with a number between 174,000 and 182,999 is not a Berdsk.
My own thoughts are that any camera numbered between 173,600 and 199,999 is as likely to have been assembled in Berdsk as those numbered between 173,600 and 174,000.
Incidentally there is a nice photo on page 91 of JLP 2nd edition showing the facade of the FED factory in 1939. The inscription on the factory facade says "CHILDRENS WORK COMMUNE". I hadn't noticed this before and I think it's the first time that I have ever seen the word "children" officially and publicly used in connection with the Fed factory. Cheers to all, Jim.

Good to see you, Jim!
For me, JLP is not always sure when he enters details. His book was written some years ago now and thanks to this forum and the sharing of our mutual knowledges, we often have a more complete and precise view...

About these type e (I won't use eBerdsk for evident reasons!), I think we can only say that:
- the range begins at c. 173600, ends at 183xxx or 184xxx. Nothing till 199999, except Leicas copies numerous in that range!
- There are 1d which do exist in that range: Alain has one of them and I saw one for sale on Ebay.
- The passport which we spoke of was stamped and filled in Kharkov (serial # 180024, 31 VIII 1941), the evacuation taking place in september. Of course, this passport is for an S which perhaps doesn't follow the rule. But what is the rule?

Many questions, few answers: in fact we can imagine almost everything. Anyway no possibility to know where these e types were assembled if all the pieces had been made before in Kharkov.

To come back to differences between e types, the vulcanite of my S (# 180971) is more fine than on my regular # 182912. Have a look at the picture, please (S on the left):


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Berdsk 004.jpg

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques, maybe the S models had a different body covering? My both Berdsk seem to have nearly the same body covering.

Zhang, nice. So you are one of the few owners of a FED S Berdsk. Conratulations!

Steve, as far as I know the S models are scatteres through the series as the normal FED s ones. I think it is as Bill wrote, only the ones with the 1/1000 max. speed had the 2.0 lens.

Bill, thanks, yes the camera looks really nice now. It seems to be used very seldom, the pressure plate has only a few signs of use and the chrome is very shiny, even on the bottom. I have noticed the whole for an additional slow speed mechanism on some post war FED's, as I remember they had serial numbers around 280.000.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Ullrich,

Your observation about this hole is quite interesting: I hadn't noticed it.
About serial numbers of S, of course, you are right. They are scattered on the whole range c, d, and e. First one in my datas: 56041 with an irregular number for the lens. We are not very far from the first regular "c".
Probably they were made under request (а la demande). But it doesn't really look like a planned economy... This question too remains unsolved. It's the charm of FSU productions!

Amitiйs. Jacques.