TSVVS 2 The Challenge!

Luiz, does anyone actually have this camera or only pictures remain?
What is second speed like dial for?(whatever located next to the revind button)

This camera has nothing at all to do with the TSVVS ! To say that it is a TSVVS-2, or lead anyone to believe that is not accurate and unfortunately could lead collectors and historians of Russian cameras to the wrong conclusion.

The camera pictured in this article is in the collection of Dr. Milos Mladek of Vienna. The photograph of this camera is in Princelle's (2nd edition, page 210). I believe the photograph in the article on this site by Luiz Paracampo was used without permission, and it is a copyrighted photograph.

This camera is thought to be a prototype or development model made by Zavod Arsenal and has nothing to do with the TSVVS (possibly made by the Almaz Zavod)! The article "TSVVS-2 The Challenge" is quite misleading, especially with the creative graphics ... leading to the wrong conclusion that this is a TSVVS-2.

Of course you can find similarities in any Leica or Contax copies, but so what? That does not mean that any theory is true, just because it is said or published on the internet.

This is an interesting camera, an has some importance in Russian camera development history, but a more accurate description of what it may be can be found in the original article about it in Princelle's.

Regards, Bill

In the pictures there are two different "TSVVS-2?" cameras one in owned by Mr Mladek and the other by Mr Kampf. they appeared in the Princelle's book second edition pg 210. In the discriptions there are no correct data about this camera only hypotesis. I contacted Mr Mladek through his friend Mario Cavina, that promised a series of pictures of the first camera. It is sure that this camera was not made by Arsenal once its bayonet although capable of receiving some Kiev lenses have completely different finishings and is also differently machined, as are for instance, Contax and Nikon S.

Luiz,
I am friends with Milos Mladek and he has expressed to me, in one of our recent e-mail conversations, that he did not give permission for his photograph to be used, and that he was not pleased that it was being used in a misleading way on this site!
I would suggest that if you want to use his photograph, which is copyrighted by him and by Princelle, then you contact him directly and tell him how you are planning on using it.
While you may be correct that the camera may not be by Arsenal, the origin is unknown at this time. It may be an Arsenal "project", an Almaz "project", or some other private or Zavaod project. Some day maybe we will know, however I can not see that even if it was made by Almaz that it would ever be called a "TSVVS-2", so your article is misleading and a bit of "fantasy", in that respect.
Of course you can write whatever you want about cameras ... and fortunately a forum like this, especially coupled with the Catalog of cameras and articles on the same site, gives the chance for others to criticize and help to correct some false impressions readers may have about things where the answers are not yet clear. This is all I'm doing.
To me it is important that the facts be clear, as to what is known and what is not known. Also, I do not think it is very ethical to use other peoples photographs without their direct permission. In fact it is known as copyright infringement!


Regards, Bill

Bill, you may be right about many things said above . But you shouldn’t be so hard on Luis. We do not trying to rewrite history here, we trying to have fun!!!. Many things is uncertain about history of photographic in whole and about Russian cameras in particular. And I believe it’s a good thing! We have room to research, speculate, predict, and sometimes make up stories, base on best of our knowledge, expertise, and intentions. Take for example FED – Yura. Most likely one of the first “fake” cameras is made so good fairy tale. History about Khruschev and Photosniper is probably also fake. How about new one: Putin and digital Zenit?
Camera is a first machine what able to stop time, it make us get back to the past via pictures it created, relieve all beautiful or scary moments. It made people far away feel like home. It made us think and fantasize. May be this is why so many people collecting them. Do you know many who collect computers? So if some of us did not have precise data about any cameras let just politely correct this data. It will benefit whole society of camera collectors. I have big favor to ask you. May be you can convince Mr. Milos Mladek to share with us his version of events and share pictures of this so mystic and beautiful camera what he has such honor to poses?!

okynek,

I don't mean to be hard on Luiz. It's ok with me, and of course everybody's right, to make fantasy articles, or part fantasy-part fact, about the cameras or anything they want. But if it is a fantasy or unproven theory, not fact, it would be very helpful if it was identified as that. For example, in Luiz's article there is a graphic symbol that looks like a real graphic of a logo. No problem there if in the article it says that maybe if there ever was a TSVVS-2, this is what the logo might look like.
So, I don't say no fantasy ... no theories, just to identify it clearly so that people will understand what they are reading about.
If Milos Mladek ever wants to post to this forum, I'm quite sure he will. I do not try to convince him of anything, and I don't want to convince anyone of anything! I am a serious collector and I like all aspects of this field, including the fantasy stuff, as long as it is clearly identified as that in some manner.
I know Luiz through e-mail, and I know he is very knowledgeable too, and I have even given him permission to use some of my own photographs, of the Zorki-35M, when he asked me. But, with photographs and copyrights, it is important to ask and get the owner's permission, in my opinion.
I have a web site and I try to give accurate information on it, make corrections, etc. Also, when someone wants to use my photos, I almost always say it is fine, but I would not expect them to weave a fantasy theory around one of my own photos. I am always hesitant to post about these kind of issues because I know everybody wants to have fun, but when the subject of the post became "TSVVS-2 The Challenge!", then this starts to make a fantasy-theoretical article look like there actually is a TSVVS-2 ... which there is not as far as anyone knows.
The issue of copyrights of photographs has been brought up before here and on other sites, and is also a matter of law. So I don't know what else to say about it. If Luiz or anyone else has direct permission from the owner of a photo to use it and manipulate it, then no problem.




Regards, Bill

I agree, Bill. Copyright is complicated issue and should be used with caution. Usually it rise when money involve. But no one answer on my initial question, what second speed like dial is for on this camera?

Luiz,
My apologies if I offended you or was to hard on you. I'm sorry to have to bring the issue up at all.
Best regards, Bill

okynek,
I believe that is not a speed dial, but is the focusing wheel, like on a Contax or Kiev (but moved over closer to the users finger so that the users finger does not block the small rangefinder window, as it can on the Contax or Kiev).
What is your name and a belated welcome to the forum from me!
Best regards, Bill

Regards, Bill

okynek,

Or if you mean the second dial on the top of the camera, it is described as a slow speed dial in Princelle's.

Regards, Bill

Bill, are you talking about black dial on the front of the camera or about dial on the top of the camera,(located next to the rewind handle)? Because this, second dial, I did not find on any other Soviet camera and I wonder what it for? Also I was thinking that big dial on the front is slow speeds. Are you thinking it only to focus lens?

So this big black handle on the front is for focusing and second speed dial on the top is for slow speeds. Make sense now. Appreciate you help Bill!!!

All right, I've added a disclaimer to the beginning of this article, hope that closes the issue.

Yes Okynek,
Sorry to be unclear. Black dial on the front for focusing,second dial on the top for slow speeds. I have never seen the camera in person, but this is what I think.

Regards, Bill

My People
Mr Mladek cordially authorized placing this first picture in the forum. He promised to send more detailed pictures of this camera.
As soon as he send them, I will do a full description of the parts with diagrams.
A debate on this item is very fascinating and very healthy once each of us begin an independent reseach. Remember that we are the right people to do such a research. I have some friends in Russia and up to this date, no one has found the real origin of this camera, although there are strong points in being a continuation of the original TSVVS. This camera was built around 1955, and had the same constructional phylosophy and materials of the previous TSVVS camera. AS the original FED was the basis for the original TSVVS, the FED 2 was the basis of this new one. Improvements were added as slow speeds etc. But this prototype series originally used Sonnar lenses still remained as War payements. Another important point is that at that time, the experienced staff who built the previous TSVVS wanted to show a better camera.
All of you go ahead....

The more I look at this piece, the lines, the design, the overall look and feel of it, the more I keep thinking this is some kind of KMZ experimentation... the closest camera I can think of is Rodina... Almost seems like a variation on a theme of Rodina.. The advance dial reminds me of a Leningrad camera design too much... the slow shutter dial is definitely something new, maybe a modified mechanism from Zorki 3?? Maybe a failed over the top complicated first attempt at creating what in the end became Rodina? Maybe another prototype by I.M. Marensov?

Vlad

I'm sorry I didn't finish my thought there and posted prematurely, I was saying that the advance dial reminds me of Leningrad dial so that may put a hole in my theory about KMZ since it will now point to GOMZ... but I still feel some kind of relationship of this camera to Rodina...

Vlad
Looking to this camera one will see a clear derivation of the FED 2.
The same way as TSVVS comes from FED 1, this new model has a Kiev bayonet mount mounted in a new FED body (derivative). You can even see the large Range/view finder of the Fed 2.
Now take a look to the knobs positioning and distance between them. You will see the same lay-out of FED 2. Different knobs, a mask in the entire front for the focusing wheel and a vertical sliding frame for the 85 and 135mm lenses ...reminiscent form the black Contax I. The slow speed mechanism uses the hollow part of the top of FED 2 and is a reminiscent of the British Agiflex. You must cock separately the slow speeds once the camera main shutter is set in "B". For sure this is not a daughter from KMZ once all parts are not used in any KMZ camera. Really, the machining is more close to the original TSVVS than any other camera, probably, strongly reinforcing the theory of being built at the same factory,
Tools and machinist people let their personality the same way as a digital impression when you study a crime!
My best regards
LP

You do present a convincing argument Luiz, but I don't know Luiz, I see KMZ and I see GOMZ stuff in it... knobs are VERY GOMZ, but it has that similarity to Rodina.. what you think of that comparison though? I really don't see any basis or derivation from the original TSVVS short of it having a Contax mount, which KMZ did experiment with as well... True there are elements of FED, KMZ and GOMZ in this camera but to jump to conclusion that it's related to TSVVS based on the mixed base+mount, I honestly don't really buy it No offense.

Vlad

And of course, all camera designers, in the USSR, at any factory or workshop, would have examples of current cameras from other factories and probably from other factories in other countries as well. That is a very standard practice. So, of course someone at GOMZ can be looking at a FED-2 and adding features, forms, or designs. And they can use the more non-descript parts from other factories, such as knobs, screws, etc. for making their prototypes.
To me, this camera does not look that much like TSVVS in construction, it reminds me mostly of KIEV-Arsenal work, and as Vlad says, knobs and stuff from GOMZ. May even be GOMZ. Although it has some basic features of FED-2, such as wide rangefinder windows, etc. many cameras from all over had those features as well. Probably could have been influenced ny Japanese cameras just as easily.
But "TVVS The Next Generation" ... probably not in my opinion.
The real question is still ... where was TSVVS made? DVDTech says Almaz Zavod, but offers no proof, even anecdotal! Does Viktor Suglob have a theory? And if so, do we have to wait for his book?

Regards, Bill

Well according to Boris at Photo-arsenal, this is a GOI Leningrad prototype

http://cgi.ebay.com/GOI-Leningrad-prototype-camera-with-contax-mount_W0QQitemZ370063366756QQihZ024QQcategoryZ15234QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

One thing I'm confused about though, it does not seem to have the spring drive and the thick spool?

Vlad

Yes, it does not look like Leningrad at all. It look to me great influence from Arsenal