Westlicht Auction / TSVVS (or VTS-VS)

Got the file from Juhani,

here's what's in the book:
"Model, known in USSR under the name of FED "General's" is consisted of copies of two German cameras. Body from the Leica model and lens with mount from Contax. Abbreviation TSVVS is engraved on the top of the rangefinder means "Topographic Service of Air Force". Manufacturer logo is absent, but in addition it is known that he cameras were assembled on one of the defense industry plants in Moscow as presents for highest ranking people of Soviet Army. Most cameras are covered in leather but only a few tens of them are covered by glossy pearl covering. Numbering is "sequential with holes" (??? нумерация порядково-сквозная), the year is indicated on the rangefinder cover. From 1949 to 1950 about 1000 cameras were manufactured.".

That's all he got. And then there is a a classificator of them. And heading of the chapter is Moscow Defense Industry Factory (which I think is just a general term to define section and not a specific factory).

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"Model ... is consisted of copies of two German cameras. Body from the Leica model and lens with mount from Contax. ..."

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Btw. the Contax part is a copy or an original?

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Abbreviation TSVVS is engraved on the top of the rangefinder means "Topographic Service of Air Force".

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Sorry, Viktor, you are miss...
The Military Topographic Service in Russia was only one. Directly submitted to the General Staff.

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Manufacturer logo is absent

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May be not... ;)

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the cameras were assembled on one of the defense industry plants in Moscow as presents for highest ranking people of Soviet Army

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I think that it wasn't the main goal...

Well, as Zoom says and for other reasons too, Viktor's paragraph about this TSVVS / VTS-VS may not be correct, or at least does not have much of anything new in the way of information.

A general copy of the Leica body, yes ... but with many differences.

A general copy of the Contax mount which will take only one Contax mount size of lens, but also with many differences.

To Zoom, no the mount on the TSVVS / VTS-VS is not a Contax mount or Zeiss part, but a machined part that has differences from any Zeiss part.

I think that there is no new info from Viktor as far as where the camera was made. Yes, of course for the Soviet Military.

Regards, Bill

Unfortunately I concur, there isn't anything new in the book description of it besides what seems to be a very detailed classificator of various VTS-VS/TSVVS variations.

Just as a side note though about the book - and I am very guilty of doing that too - it's not really Viktor Suglob's book, it's the team of authors - Suglob, Shaternik and Kachergin... I don't think they get enough credit for this wonderful publication.

Sometime close to the publishing date in our numerous correspondence and conversations Viktor had hinted at some breakthrough information that was supposed to be in the book about this camera, but I think I vaguely recall something about him saying that it didn't make this edition in time or something of the sorts, but cannot be sure. What is really interesting is though that the "Minsk trio" does not rely on Yuriy's Almaz Factory story although they all are very familiar with it... I guess I got at least that from the book ...

Vlad.

Vlad,

I think that if it is the case that Viktor and his co-authors have some new and definitive information about the origin factory, designer, or its exact use and distribution and that it was obtained too late for the publication of the book, then all they have to do is write it to you and you would put it on this web site. If any of them are seriously interested in the history of the Soviet and Russian cameras (which I think they are to write a book about it) then of course they should reveal something important like this rather than to first say that new information is coming in the book, and then, there was not time.

Any story about where this camera was made should have some evidence. Yuriy's story was nice to read, but any story of origin must have more evidence than just "a worker at the factory remembers this". Personally I believe the evidence is in physical form, in the cameras themselves ... but who can read it? For example, no doubt if samples of chrome plating were analyzed from two cameras, a German Contax and a Soviet-made Kiev (not just fabricated from the German parts, but a bit later when they were fully made in Kiev) there would be chemical or alloy differences. So comparison of details may be the way to start to look for the answer unless some actual documents appear.

Regards, Bill

Bill,

you're absolutely right, there is no reason why Viktor would not share that information if I asked him, it's just I am not sure if the information that did not make it into the book includes the info on TSVVS (I think there may be but don't know for sure), but there is definitely materials that did not make it. I am due to call him anyways soon (hopefully tomorrow during my lunch break) so I'll ask him at the same time about this camera.

Vlad

Sounds good Vlad ... thanks for your info line to him and please thank him and his co-authors from me for all of their hard work on the book. I am anxious to see the book for myself!

Regards, Bill

Not a problem.. you and me both (about that book that is)

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Originally posted by nightphoto

no the mount on the TSVVS / VTS-VS is not a Contax mount or Zeiss part, but a machined part that has differences from any Zeiss part.

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Thank you! So: not Arsenal and not KOMZ. And: not from East Germany...

Just spoke to Viktor, the information he was telling me about could not be independently confirmed (just like in our case here) so it was not included in the book, rather they reverted to a general description. From what I understood they had a few word of mouth accounts that he did not want to put on the record since they didn't believe them to be plausible when fact-checking

Vlad

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Originally posted by Vlad

Just spoke to Viktor, the information he was telling me about could not be independently confirmed...

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The true "name" of this camera* (VTS VS) is confirmed absolutely.

*) -- better to say, that this is the name of military service, of course.

Thanks Zoom, I've passed it on to Viktor in my email, I'm sure he will be glad of revision for the next edition of the book.

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Originally posted by Vlad

Thanks Zoom, I've passed it on to Viktor in my email, I'm sure he will be glad of revision for the next edition of the book.

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In my letter to him I have expressed the same hope... ;)

Zoom,

Because of other details, especially the method and style of stamping the numbers into the bottom of the shutter cage and bottom plate, I think there may still be some possibility of East German manufacture. These numbers look very much like the numbers put on Contax cameras and there is no other similar numbers on any Soviet camera that I am aware of.

The fact that the mount is not a Zeiss or Contax part may be because all of the Contax mounts had already been shipped to USSR and so the engineers had to make a new version for this camera.

Wherever it was made, it must have been thought that the camera would not need to have other lenses than 50mm, since no other Contax / Kiev - mount lenses will fit since the outside bayonet is not presnt on the TSVVS mount. In some way, it seems strange to me that a camera made for auxilliary use for the Military Topographical service would be thought of not to ever need a telephoto or wide angle lens ... just only a normal 50mm lens. So this is another mystery to me and in some way does relate back to the legend of the "General's FED" where the main use would have been to give to officers as a sort of "trophy" camera ... and maybe just using the Topographical service as a convenient method of being able to make these cameras under official Soviet order, but then given out to special officers. It would have seemed to be proper that an officer of high rank was in the possession of a Topographical Service camera, since after all they may have needed to use a camera in the field.

Regards, Bill

Here's something I just want to throw out there for discussion:

VTS (ВТС) can also mean Military Transport Service (Военно Траспортная Служба) or Miltary Transport Airplane (Военно Транспортный Самолет) and also Military Technical Service(not sure if there was one) (Военно Техническая Служба) or Military Technical Cooperation (Военно Техническое Сотрудничество)...

Is possible these cameras were made to be given out as presents to foreign military allies? Waaay out there, I know, but the Military Technical Cooperation (it's a real term too, http://www.fsvts.gov.ru/ , not sure if such agency existed in USSR though) kinda makes sense.. presents for foreign military dignitaries...

Vlad,

You may be on the right track to look for other meanings to the initials. I say this because the official logo or emblem of the Topographical service has a different symbol than seen on the TSVVS / VTS-VS.

Военно-топографическая служба


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/25112009_7.jpg

This and the fact that the camera is not equipped to take other lenses has made me wonder about Topographic Service use. On the other hand, there is a camera that has inscriptions to an officer known from Bronstein collection, and most of these cameras do seem to be found in Russia, not other foreign countries.




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/25112009_TSVVS-700 Bronstein.jpg



Regards, Bill

Good point Bill,

the inscription also uses the abbreviation VTS. It can also easily mean Military Transport Means of Soviet Army, (..в частях Военно Транспортных Средств Советской Армии) the way it's inscribed... I'm just wondering WHY the Topographical service was singled out to start with...

Vlad

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Originally posted by Vlad

VTS (ВТС) can also mean Military Transport Service (Военно Траспортная Служба) or Miltary Transport Airplane (Военно Транспортный Самолет) and also Military Technical Service(not sure if there was one) (Военно Техническая Служба) or Military Technical Cooperation (Военно Техническое Сотрудничество)...

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It is hard to explain with my poor English that all your variants won't do for this case.

Zoom, go ahead post in Russian I'll be happy to translate.. I always said you can do that.

Also, on my own website there is a photo from my collection of Soviet officers, a General and a Colonel, and the Colonel (who is a political officer) has a TSVVS camera:

http://nightphoto.com/photos.html (scroll down ... the third set of photos)





Regards, Bill