Soviet cameras pricing bubble

This was kind of prompted by the discussion on IDCC about the McKeown and the accuracy of his pricing - does it just seem to it me or Soviet cameras had been really gaining steam in terms of pricing? It seems quite disproportionate to the current market of vintage camera equipment.. And I guess I'm talking more about uncommon pieces rather than FED-3 and Zorki-4 cameras...

Examples - Maliutka and Liloput could be bought for about $200 3 years ago, whereas now I have not seen it for less than $600-800

Zenit-7 went from being around $300 to close to a $800-$1000

My guess is it's driven by the introduction of Molotok.ru site that actually allowed Russians access to the internet and the rarities?

Any thoughts?

I noticed also a price inflation for regular gear. Jupiter 9 or 3 , Kiev II or FED 1 are now rather expensive compared to what they offer, let's be honest.

Some are collector items but most of them are not. For M42 lenses, I can understand it as they attract DSLR users who prefer manual focus but it doesn't apply to all soviet equipement. Who buy a $80 Zorki 1 or a $130 Jupiter 3? Things being equal, for that price, I can easily buy 2 or 3 japanese rangefinder in very good condition...

Nicolas,

it depends on the condition of the items. The cameras and lenses I sell on my web site are all in good condition and fully functional and so people do pay 85 Euro for a J-9 or 70 Euro for a Zorki 4 for example.
But on eBay you can also get trash for that amount of money and only a few sellers there have good pictures and good descriptions of their stuff. Sometimes I wonder how one can pay 50 bucks for a Zorki that is described with a blurry picture and the words "I dont know if it works but it seems to be ok"...

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

What do you guys think is the major cause of that inflation?

Vlad

I think that there are a number of factors causing these price increases. Firstly, there are probably fewer good examples of the rarer cameras around, since we, the collectors, now own many of them. There is also the problem that I have mentioned before: that is, the colouring, re-engraving and modifying of cameras which reduces the number of genuine originals available to collectors. Thirdly, there is the realisation in the source countries, Russian, Ukraine and Belarus, that we are willing to pay more for collectable cameras.

David

(http://www.rcccuk.com)

I think that one of the causes can be USSRphoto...
When we speak of a special model, we can observe that the sellers put it on the net at increased prices...
Now, it's difficult to find a Fed NKVD at 80Ђ or a Fed S at 250Ђ. Three years ago, they were at 30Ђ and 120Ђ...

But it's not a rule: if I am not wrong, a TSVVS (or VTS-VS ) was sold lately at less than 1000Ђ (+ 20%)at Westlicht Auction. Not a bargain, but a low price compared to what we could see last year.
And it's not the only example.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Another opinion, mine, is as well as Russes, Polish, ex-East German , Chineses etc... are now informed collectors who are interested in their photographic heritage.

OK with Alain: it's probably the most important reason.

hmm.. I also tend to agree with Alain, I also think there are more collectors emerged in Russia and that with some improvement of financial situation there, the cameras see more demand.

Jacques, very flattering that you mention this site as one of the causes, I think if it's one, it's a small one.. in case if anyone is interested, I decided to do a snapshot report of a traffic analysis to this site in past year (past 12 months from today's date) by country. It shows top ten in the list.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/15122009_ussrphoto_stats.jpg

quote:

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Originally posted by mermoz37

Another opinion, mine, is as well as Russes, Polish, ex-East German , Chineses etc... are now informed collectors who are interested in their photographic heritage.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RCCCUK

I think that there are a number of factors causing these price increases. Firstly, there are probably fewer good examples of the rarer cameras around, since we, the collectors, now own many of them.

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I agree on both of these. One more proof is the fact that even in Europe there is still local markets where even true rarities go for bargain prices, as market is too limited: only a small limited group of interested buyers.

Best regards,
Juhani

Well, well,well…
I do agree with Alain and Jacques.

Did you notice that we, Frenchies, are in third position on Vlad's traffic report?

So, Vlad, MANY THANKS to you again for the top quality of your site.

(And BTW, NO THANKS for contributing to the raise in prices of FSU cameras !

Sincerly and amitiйs,
Michel.

quote:

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Originally posted by Michel

(And BTW, NO THANKS for contributing to the raise in prices of FSU cameras !

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HA! Well Michel - look at it this way - the cameras ALREADY in your collection went up in price! .

Glad you enjoyed my little map.

Cheers,
Vlad.

Hmmmm...
Why on this map , Japan and China are missing ?
You know , there are some famous collectors in FSU camera in these countries !
and I can say in Spain , the same !

I heard from a friend of mine who live in Moscow that there are more Russians who are interested in these Soviet era vintage cameras, especially those rare and unusual ones. And in Beijing, there are much less Soviet cameras than German Leicas, Zeiss, Japanese Nikon, Canon, etc. SO if there is more demand, the price will be up for sure.

Cheers,

Zhang

Happy we are in the top three...
But it would be interesting to have a more detailed map (or list)to make precise comparisons.
Possible to have that, Vlad?

Thanks. Amitiйs. Jacques.

Here you go Jacques, number after is # of visits last year.

1 United States 14,541
2 United Kingdom 5,287
3 France 4,772
4 Russia 4,642
5 Germany 2,883
6 Lithuania 2,765
7 Ukraine 2,393
8 Poland 2,248
9 Italy 2,142
10 Estonia 2,083
11 Switzerland 1,945
12 Finland 1,511
13 Hungary 1,253
14 Canada 1,098
15 Spain 1,022
16 Czech Republic 907
17 Philippines 807
18 Netherlands 777
19 Brazil 761
20 Sweden 745
21 Hong Kong 728
22 Romania 717
23 Australia 690
24 Belgium 610
25 Turkey 550
26 Japan 536
27 China 502
28 Thailand 475
29 Greece 446
30 Latvia 418
31 Serbia 387
32 Portugal 368
33 Indonesia 353
34 Austria 345
35 Bulgaria 344
36 Singapore 342
37 Taiwan 333
38 Croatia 324
39 Israel 300
40 Denmark 276
41 Slovakia 269
42 Norway 236
43 Malaysia 224
44 Argentina 223
45 South Korea 217
46 Ireland 182
47 Georgia 175
48 Mexico 149
49 Belarus 146
50 India 141
51 New Zealand 136
52 Slovenia 136
53 (not set) 134
54 Uzbekistan 117
55 Chile 88
56 Iceland 78
57 Vietnam 57
58 Macedonia [FYROM] 57
59 South Africa 54
60 Iran 51
61 Colombia 40
62 Moldova 35
63 Venezuela 30
64 United Arab Emirates 29
65 Egypt 29
66 Kazakhstan 28
67 Bosnia and Herzegovina 27
68 Uruguay 25
69 Azerbaijan 23
70 Cuba 23
71 Pakistan 23
72 Luxembourg 22
73 Cyprus 19
74 Saudi Arabia 18
75 Peru 18
76 Mongolia 14
77 Guadeloupe 13
78 Macau 12
79 Puerto Rico 12
80 Armenia 10
81 Malta 9
82 Lebanon 9
83 Montenegro 8
84 Isle of Man 7
85 Kuwait 7
86 Jordan 7
87 Dominican Republic 6
88 Brunei 6
89 Guatemala 6
90 Kyrgyzstan 6
91 Ecuador 5
92 Algeria 5
93 Nepal 5
94 Sri Lanka 5
95 Morocco 5
96 Albania 4
97 Nicaragua 4
98 Angola 4
99 Cфte d’Ivoire 3
100 Panama 3
101 Bahrain 3
102 Ghana 3
103 Costa Rica 3
104 Syria 3
105 U.S. Virgin Islands 3
106 Gibraltar 3
107 Iraq 3
108 Tunisia 2
109 Nigeria 2
110 Cambodia 2
111 Mauritius 2
112 Trinidad and Tobago 2
113 Bolivia 2
114 Palestinian Territories 2
115 Andorra 2
116 Monaco 2
117 Liechtenstein 2
118 Qatar 2
119 Rйunion 2
120 Libya 2
121 Uganda 1
122 Maldives 1
123 Kenya 1
124 Martinique 1
125 Falkland Islands [Islas Malvinas] 1
126 El Salvador 1
127 Mozambique 1
128 Jamaica 1
129 Turks and Caicos Islands 1
130 Honduras 1
131 Cayman Islands 1
132 Oman 1
133 Yemen 1
134 Myanmar [Burma] 1
135 Sierra Leone 1
136 Bahamas 1
137 Faroe Islands 1
138 French Guiana 1
139 Jersey 1
140 Tajikistan 1
141 Namibia 1
142 Laos 1
143 Burkina Faso 1
144 Swaziland 1

Thanks for the job, Vlad!

I am surprised to see that some countries are under represented: Japan, India, China, and even Belarus... Why? It doesn't correspond to what I may know about the collectors.

Some others like Russia, Ukraine, Poland, are probably more and more important.

Two important (perhaps!) questions: are there real differences between the visits on URSSphoto and what we know about the number of collectors in some countries? And what about the variations since the opening of USSRphoto?

Thanks again, Vlad.
Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Jacques,

I think that your question is hard to answer…
The number of connections from each country is, in my advice, not at all representative of the real number of collectors.

If you, Alain and me (for example )are connected twice or thrice a day, it is not representative of the number of FSU camera collectors in France.

Sincerly and amitiйs,
Michel

Yea these are visits and not visitors, but I think I can get that report too for unique visitors. I will try later on tonight. And Jacques, you're welcome it's very interesting for me too, I love statistics :)

Here are actual unique visits to the site for past year.. which is about 50% of the above number.

1 United States 6,236
2 United Kingdom 2,556
3 Russia 1,913
4 Germany 1,772
5 France 1,662
6 Poland 1,601
7 Italy 1,374
8 Estonia 1,094
9 Hungary 845
10 Canada 836
11 Ukraine 771
12 Finland 719
13 Lithuania 657
14 Spain 612
15 Romania 524
16 Czech Republic 501
17 Australia 458
18 Hong Kong 437
19 Netherlands 432
20 Sweden 419
21 Turkey 382
22 Brazil 315
23 Thailand 294
24 Latvia 289
25 Belgium 276
26 Indonesia 275
27 Switzerland 275
28 Japan 268
29 Greece 262
30 Bulgaria 257
31 Portugal 257
32 Singapore 236
33 Serbia 220
34 China 218
35 Taiwan 200
36 Croatia 185
37 Slovakia 184
38 Israel 179
39 Austria 179
40 Malaysia 178
41 Philippines 168
42 Norway 160
43 South Korea 147
44 Denmark 145
45 Ireland 137
46 Argentina 135
47 India 116
48 Mexico 104
49 New Zealand 99
50 Slovenia 94
51 Belarus 87
52 (not set) 77
53 Georgia 71
54 Chile 66
55 Vietnam 51
56 Macedonia [FYROM] 50
57 Iran 44
58 South Africa 41
59 Iceland 39
60 Colombia 30
61 Moldova 26
62 Venezuela 24
63 Egypt 23
64 Bosnia and Herzegovina 23
65 Cuba 21
66 United Arab Emirates 21
67 Uruguay 21
68 Pakistan 20
69 Kazakhstan 20
70 Peru 18
71 Uzbekistan 16
72 Saudi Arabia 15
73 Luxembourg 15
74 Cyprus 13
75 Puerto Rico 10
76 Macau 10
77 Azerbaijan 10
78 Armenia 10
79 Mongolia 8
80 Montenegro 8
81 Malta 7
82 Lebanon 6
83 Kyrgyzstan 6
84 Guatemala 6
85 Jordan 6
86 Kuwait 6
87 Morocco 5
88 Isle of Man 5
89 Nepal 5
90 Dominican Republic 5
91 Ecuador 4
92 Sri Lanka 4
93 Algeria 4
94 Brunei 4
95 Guadeloupe 4
96 Costa Rica 3
97 Cфte d’Ivoire 3
98 U.S. Virgin Islands 3
99 Syria 3
100 Iraq 3
101 Ghana 3
102 Bahrain 2
103 Albania 2
104 Monaco 2
105 Panama 2
106 Trinidad and Tobago 2
107 Cambodia 2
108 Bolivia 2
109 Tunisia 2
110 Nigeria 2
111 Gibraltar 2
112 Mauritius 2
113 Nicaragua 2
114 Libya 2
115 Rйunion 2
116 Liechtenstein 2
117 Palestinian Territories 2
118 Maldives 1
119 Burkina Faso 1
120 Angola 1
121 Oman 1
122 French Guiana 1
123 Falkland Islands [Islas Malvinas] 1
124 Martinique 1
125 Namibia 1
126 Cayman Islands 1
127 El Salvador 1
128 Bahamas 1
129 Laos 1
130 Turks and Caicos Islands 1
131 Mozambique 1
132 Honduras 1
133 Swaziland 1
134 Myanmar [Burma] 1
135 Faroe Islands 1
136 Qatar 1
137 Jamaica 1
138 Tajikistan 1
139 Andorra 1
140 Uganda 1
141 Jersey 1

by the way if anyone has a Google account and interested in very detailed traffic statistics to this site, email me you google email address and I can give you full access to view the reports on Google Analytics.

Vlad.