Westlicht Auction / TSVVS (or VTS-VS)

Hello,

maybe this is interesting for you: Westlicht starts a new auction on the 5th of December, they have a TSVVS and a VOOMP to sell. The VOOMP has serial number 333 and looks good, but the staring price is unfortunately very high... What do you think, are they both real?

http://www.westlicht-auction.com/index.php?id=175097&acat=175097&_ssl=off

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Ulrich!
No problem for the TSVVS, I think.
For the VOOMP: I don't have presently Alain's one in my hands to compare! But I think there is no doubt: Peter Coeln is a specialist.
Alas...one camera more I will never get!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.


No problem for the TSVVS, I think.

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Only one: the real camera name is VTS-VS.

So...what means exactly "VTS-VS" ? please...

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Originally posted by mermoz37

So...what means exactly "VTS-VS" ? please...

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ВТС ВС СССР -- Военно-топографическая служба Вооруженных сил СССР (Voenno-topograficheskaya sluzhba Vo-oruzhennykh sil SSSR -- VTS VS SSSR -- Military-topographical service of the USSR Armed forces).

ok , thank a lot "Zoom"....

Zoom,

Do you know, or have any ideas about which factory or which location the VTS-VS was made at ? And, do you know or have any ideas what the purpose of the camera would be for the Topographical Service since it is small format ... why would they need this camera ?

Regards, Bill

Bill......

Picture of the TSVVS camera from your collection is in the article on it's creation :) http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/1/18.htm

are you kidding us or am I missing something?

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Originally posted by nightphoto

Do you know, or have any ideas about which factory or which location the VTS-VS was made at ?

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The only thing that I can tell: not FED and not KMZ...

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Originally posted by nightphoto
And, do you know or have any ideas what the purpose of the camera would be for the Topographical Service since it is small format ... why would they need this camera ?

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Using this camera as a auxiliary tool -- why not? A landscapes shots for a reports, for a teaching materials, etc...

Kirill,

From what I understand (by asking Yuriy in person during our meeting in France), he in that article is relying on a story of a friend who had a father working at that factory etc... We are not disputing that, but we're like to confirm it from some other sources as well, since there isn't any known documentary evidence of the Almaz factory ever making these cameras.. I guess we'd like something more concrete than word of mouth to solidify that account.

It is possible we will never know for sure, although Viktor Suglob promised some information in his book that he insisted we need to wait for to read in it. And I completely forgot to check it when I had it in my hands in Bievres, did anyone who was there remember what was in it? I know Aidas and Juhani have that book already, anything they can tell us that is not in Yuriy's article?

Vlad

TCBBC is listed under Moskovskij Zavod Oboronnoj Promatslennosti or something like that. I have no cyrillic letters in my keyboard, and translitteration is to Finnish...
Vlad: Should I send you a scan of the text? After all I can't take it as a copyright violation as you are soon getting your copy and we are not duplicating anything that serious?

Best regards,
Juhani

Hi Juhani, yea that'll be great if you don't mind of course, I'll translate and summarize and post it in short here.. Thank you!

Vlad

Kirill,

Yes, the photo of one of my cameras is in the article on the DVD Tech site, and of course I gave Yuriy Davidenko permission to use the photo, but as Vlad has said, there is no confirmation or evidence that the article is correct.

There may be a theory also in Viktor Suglub's new book also, and hopefully there will be some evidence that this theory is correct! It is always easy to have a theory ... but to offer some convincing proof is the hard part with this camera.

I even have my own thoughts that by looking at the camera itself, and several details in its construction and build, that it may have been made as a project, for the Military Topographical Service of the USSR, but at one of the factories that were located in the Soviet Occupied Germany and had previously made the Contax cameras before they were dismantled to be used in the USSR. This may sound far-fetched at first, but when you look at the use of the specific serial numbers of the Ziess lenses used on the TSVVS (I will still call it that, although no doubt Zoom is correct about the real name being "VTSVS", as the search engines will find it under "TSVVS") and some other things like the numbers stamped onto the base plate and bottom of the shutter cage, the kind of leather used on the body and the case, the style of type used in the logo and serial number, and the quality and type of finish of the chrome.

Also, whoever designed the lens mount was very familiar with the Contax style mount, obviously, and the mount was designed not to take other lenses besides the normal 50mm lens, which makes me think that this may have been the only lens available in quantity in 1949-1950 ... in USSR there were other lenses available for this mount (taken from Germany), but in Germany maybe there were none left. Also it would seem that if made in USSR, the mount would have been an exact copy of the Contax mount rather than a new design that has no way to mount the lenses that use the exterior bayonet. This last idea, about the mount is something I have just thought of and maybe I'm not correct in my thinking about this detail.

So this is not a theory with any proof ... just some ideas I have had for some time, with my thoughts coming from observation.

Zoom,

Thank you for your answers to my questions! You are right that it could be made for auxilliary use and good to have confirmation that the camera was not made at FED or KMZ.

Regards, Bill

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Originally posted by cedricfan

TCBBC is listed under Moskovskij Zavod Oboronnoj Promatslennosti or something like that.

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Московский завод оборонной промышленности (Moskovsky zavod oboronnoy promyshlennosti)? LOL...

Zoom. Yes, what ever that means...
Vlad. In 1h you will get a scan!

Best regards,
Juhani

Zoom,

What factory is it and what do or did they produce? Any cameras or photo equipment? Why "LOL"?

Regards, Bill

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Originally posted by cedricfan

Yes, what ever that means...

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Originally posted by nightphoto

Why "LOL"?

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Such plant name could not be in the nature.

This may be helpful in this discussion as well.. http://bit.ly/5lBoH5

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Originally posted by Vlad

This may be helpful in this discussion as well.. http://bit.ly/5lBoH5

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In the list (at http://www.militaryparitet.com/nomen/russia/pri/data/ic_nomenrussiapri/11/ ) there are only: an aircraft plants, shipyards, armoured and motor (automobile) plants, rocketry, artillery and small arms plants.

Maybe you're right, it does not seem to consider the optical-mechanical factories which I guess can or cannot be considered "Oboronnaya Promyshlenost'" (Defense Industry)... I didn't read the whole thing it was long..

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Originally posted by Vlad

Maybe you're right, it does not seem to consider the optical-mechanical factories which I guess can or cannot be considered "Oboronnaya Promyshlenost'" (Defense Industry)... I didn't read the whole thing it was long..

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Some of this, optical, plants are listed there: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-logos.html
and there:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/history/davidov-from-lupe.html
Probably that it is necessary to read that text this way: "a certain, unknown, Moscow factory of the defense industry".

But I am not assured that it was a Moscow plant... The "Almaz" version is good, but it is based on nothing... :(
And by the way, the assumption that it was the East German factory also has the right to existence...