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FED 1d T.S.V.V.S F93- "No Name", fake or not?

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12/12/2016 09:50

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(On the RFF-site I published this question first. Some gentle people referred to this site... Therefore .. there we go again:)

Hello. My name is Ad. I am new on this forum. And first of all: my apologies for my somewhat poor English. My subject is a FED camera.
This summer I went on vacation in Germany. Being a collector of (rangefinder) cameras I bought in the neighbourhood of Dresden three cameras in a small, dark "antique"/junk-store: a Kiev (3A) and two Leica copies, Russian, according to the seller. One copy with a (CZJ - Tessar, nr. 3617223) lens, the other without a lens. I saw that one of the Leica-copies was chromed. All 3 together: € 50. Three weeks later, at home again, I discovered some strange things on the two Leica-copies: no inscriptions for example, and a square mounting plate behind the lens. I'm no "connaisseur" of Leica cameras or Leica-copies. So I contacted "TomTiger" Piel (https://tomtiger.home.xs4all.nl/fakes.html ).
He assumed these two cameras were Feds with a Contax-mount (T.S.V.V.S F93- "No Name", from the "Princelle" Catalogue). (Very?) Rare. But he also wrote that these types were often counterfeited! (The camera looks exactly like the PH1005 on the website: http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?1556498228, except the lens of course.)
So, before I will spend some money for a CLA and/or a repair, I want to know if these 2 old cameras are original FED's TSVVS F93-No Name or fakes ...........
I hope this forumsite can give me more information.
My question to you is: Can anyone tell me how I can see whether these cameras are original "No Name" FEDs or counterfeited?
Also I'll have to detect if the cameras are well functioning. Therefore I have to read a manual of the FED 1d first. If a repair is necessary (and when it is unmistakable that the copies are original), I would be interested in CLA costs and persons who are capable to do a CLA. (Assuming it is too difficult to do it yourself, follow the link, for example, to J.Javier: http://jay.fedka.com/index_files/Page466.htm). Later I will be interested in the strange history of this hybrid camera. But first of all I'll have to wait for answers at my first question: original or not.
I have made some pictures. Please let me know which are relevant.
In advance, thanks for your answers and responses, any help will be appreciated.
Kind regards,
Ad

*) P.S. I saw that that there are 4 very minor differences between both oldies: on the chromed version are 2 inscriptions of small arrows: one (curved) nearby the button/switch of the reversing lever, the other (straight) nearby the filmcounter; otherwise on the other version is on the bottom a small black button mounted (looks like a flash contact...). And last: the 6 screws on de upperplate (3 front, 3 back) are not exactly placed on the same spots.

12/12/2016 17:12

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Thank you Ad!

At first glance these do look like legit TSVVS (or VTS-VS) cameras with smaller rangefinder and viewfinder windows than FEDs. This is quite interesting as you have found them together in Germany, as one of the running theories here by Alexey Nikitin (levonsa) is that they were made in East-German factory by special Soviet order. I would like to get some other's opinions as well, but these seem like genuine articles to me (considering all TSVVS are gunuine) - another theory that the whole series is an elaborate line of fakes made by very skilled technicians in Poland..

I personally more inclined towards Alexey's story.

Cheers,
Vlad

12/13/2016 05:41

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Hello,

Welcome here, Ad.
I had seen your question on RFF. And frankly, it's not easy to answer. Probably we could share the discussion and examine your two cameras separately...

There are many special features on TSVVS-s. I only take four of them.

- the weight. The body and the bottom are made of brass, so they are heavier than Feds. To compare: 572g for body + bottom, 52g for bottom only. For a Fed: 366g and 43g in the same conditions.
- the internal number, stamped on the bottom (internal face), bottom of the shutter box, and internal face of the belt, under the press film.
- the finder. The front window is smaller than Feds', and it is in the middle of the front rectangle.
- the dimensions, lightly bigger than Feds, so that a Fed shoe cannot be mounted on a TSVVS.

There are curious features on your cameras, and I wonder if they were not made from TSVVS parts, completed with other ones... Anyway, you should buy a 1d to compare closely, Ad...

Of course OK about the possible German origin of the TSVVS. I remind that some Jena Contaxes have the same internal engraved numbers as TSVVS-s. And brass made bodies!

Amitiés. Jacques.
PS: I should be deceived that this discussion would end by a sale, as it was several times the case not long ago.

12/13/2016 16:02

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Hello Jacques,

1. Thanks for your answer. Too bad for me: the weight of both camera's is only 532 g each (excl. lens, incl. bottom). The weight of the bottoms is 49/48 g each. Material is brass, as you can see on the pictures ...?
2. The internal number is difficult to find. Should I use a screwdriver?
3. The finder looks very small
4. The length is 13,4 cm, depth is 3,1 cm.
(5). There also is the question about the leather: smooth indeed.

Vriendelijke groet,
Ad
P.S. I can reassure you: I have no intention to sell ...

12/14/2016 04:01

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Hi Ad,

Sorry, the TSVVS is a bit smaller, not bigger. I should have re read my post... The dimensions you give are Fed's ones, TSVVS's ones are about 13,3cm/3cm if I take them at the shoe. And as said before, a TSVVS bottom cannnot be mounted on a Fed.

Concerning the finder, is seems that the window is too low (not exactly centered) on one of your cameras. Impossible to say for the other which is not entirely visible.

I look for an internal number and I post it.

Jacques.

12/14/2016 05:46

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Something else.
The bottom plate is bolted on the body through a piece which is screwed on your camera (your 4:17:57 PM post), like on Leicas.
On TSVVS-s and most Feds, this piece is riveted.

See here the difference:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/14122016_DSCF2584.JPG

Screws on left (Leica type), rivets on right (TSVVS type).

It would be interesting too to have a photo of the release spring. Fed's and TSVVS's are different.

Jacques.

PS: I had let the spool when weighing the TSVVS. Without anything, I have 559g.




12/14/2016 08:15

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So, original TSVVS or not? Impossible to be absolutely sure.

No doubt that some features are original: the buttons, the accessory shoe, the ears for straps, the leatherette. And the general look too: I agree with Vlad.

For me, they could be pre series cameras, before the official production, with some Fed/Leica parts. Or post series ones, with original parts completed with others. The fact that these cameras are not engraved goes in that direction: they could have been made in Germany, as said previously, but not sent in USSR, because non official ones.

Of course, we cannot completely exclude that they are fakes. A regular TSVVS worths 3000€ or so. At that price, it's easy to convince a faker. But I don't think it is the case: too many details are original. And seeing the price you paid for them...Big smile

You really have very interesting cameras, Ad. Just the ones I love: those who put questions!

Amitiés. Jacques.

12/14/2016 08:50

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This may be going towards more discussion again about TSVVS origins, but a friend in Russia sent me an old article from Soviet Photo magazine (I have to find it, but it's in Russian), by a Polish technician who was describing installing a Contax mount on a FED camera. There was then a whole group of Russian collectors that started inclining towards a theory that the whole series were produced by this very talented group of Polish technicians as a "fantasy" series. Same people who made the FED Sport and Zorki 75. One of their arguments was that no one knew about this camera until it showed up in 1990s on the collector's market and there is no record of it anywhere before 1980s or so...

I hate to start another fire, but I think this forum is the place where to air such theories. Smile

Cheers,
Vlad

12/14/2016 09:29

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Ad,

You have a part of the release spring on your 4:17:57 post. It's the blue/black blade which is in connection with the release button: the spring moves when you press the button.

Vlad, sure you are an incendiary. You have prepared the extinguishers? Big smile

Jacques.
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