FED-1948-Zorki

Hello Jacques

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.


As we know, KMZ began with Fed (and Contax) lenses hardly modified: so is my n° 11359. But after, it is not so easy to tell which lens normally fits which type of Fed-Zorki, or even Zorki 1a or 1b (at the beginning).

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We know? I didn't know ... and I don't belief.

As I know mostly all Kiev/Contax lenses at this time were made by KMZ. The earlier ones from parts from Germany (the SK series).

The Industar 22 from KMZ and the so called Industar 10 from FED are not the same construction, I think. But it's just an other story.

In 1948 KMZ build the Industar 22 "Moscow", in 1948 to 1949 the Industar 22 and since 1948 (1947?) the noname Industar 22. Some of this lenses you can see on this picture:



(from the page http://www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/zorkiobjektive.html)

The Industar 22 "Moscow" was not coated in the first run (picture 1), some of them are later. The Industar 22 "Zorki" was coated mostly (picture 2). And the other (early) Industar 22 were coated mostly too (picture 3 maybe from 1952 (or earlier?) and picture 4 from 1953). I have some of them here. For the differences of the coatings I agree, there are some.

The FED-Zorki were delivered with the "Moscow", the "Zorki" and the noname Industar 22 variant over the time (1948/1949). The Zorki 1a (1949) also. And some FED-Zorki's were also deliverd with ZK 50mm/1.5 and ZK 50mm/2.0 lenses by the way.

I think most of the lenses delivered with FED-Zorki's are authentic. I've seen only very few offers with later Industar 22 (or other later lenses) coming with FED-Zorki's.

Maybe it helps ...

Best wishes - Guido

Sorry, here are the right pictures:

1:

2:

3:

4:

An other correction:

quote:

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Originally posted by Guido Studer


In 1948 KMZ build the Industar 22 "Moscow", in 1948 to 1949 the Industar 22 and since 1948 (1947?) the noname Industar 22.

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Should say:

In 1948 KMZ build the Industar 22 "Moscow", in 1948 to 1949 the Industar 22 "Zorki" and since 1948 (1947?) the noname Industar 22.
^^^^^^^

Sorry for so much entries ...

Thanks, Guido. That sounds more clear, between the JLP and your explanations.

What puzzles me too is the variety of very early MOCKBAs (your picture one). Some are really very close to the Fed 3,5/50mm, including the engraving type. Others, like yours, begin to be different. All seem to have the new range of diaphragms. Very interesting lenses, close to the birth of KMZ factory (for cameras).

Amitiйs. Jacques.

quote:

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The Industar 22 from KMZ and the so called Industar 10 from FED are not the same construction, I think. But it's just an other story

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I am wondering if the early Industar 22 with the diafragm tab, is longer than the Industar 10 (FED).
The main difference in optics between the regular Industar 22 and the Fed 3,5/50 is the fact that the I-22 is longer.

Guido,

two more variations of the early I-22 lens:

Here a picture of the I-22 that was on my FED-Zorki:



and this is on my Zorki 1a:



Ulrich


http://fotos.cconin.de

Hello Ulrich

Nice pictures ... but could you say anything about the s/n of this lenses?

Best wishes - Guido

quote:

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I am wondering if the early Industar 22 with the diafragm tab, is longer than the Industar 10 (FED).
The main difference in optics between the regular Industar 22 and the Fed 3,5/50 is the fact that the I-22 is longer.

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Good point, Milo.
I have just compared the length: my early MOCKBA (with short diaphragm tab) is just the same length of later Industar 22. So it's not only a reengraved Fed 3,5/50, contrarily to what I thought.

To Guido and Ulrich:
I am (always!) a bit lost about the question of serial numbers on these early I-22. Did KMZ numbered them regularly from the beginning to the K350 (Zorki 1b, 1950)? Certainly not, but I don't own enough I-22 to know how that works.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Guido,

the first lens (K340 on FED-Zorki) has serial 147, the second (K345 on Zorki 1a) has serial 6481 which matches to the serial of the camera itself (6760).

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Jacques,

I don't know how KMZ uses the serial numbers. It seems that on the FED-Zorki the numbers are not corresponding to the serials of the cameras, maybe because they used a lot of different lenses on this camera.

The serial number of the lens on my Zorki 1a matches the number of the camera very close, like we see it on prewar FED's. I think from 1950 on they numbered the I-22 with the year as the first two digits (but as we know not the Zorkis itself...) with the exceptions we know (serial starting with 60, 70 and 80). Maybe Zoom knows more about it :-)

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Ulrich,

I have written about this before. I don't know about earlier but I agree about the first two digits of six digits from 1950 (although low number of samples as the numbers didn't start to appear on the front till 1951 or 1952). 1953 and 1954 lenses seem to fit the two digit year pattern. However, my database has no KMZ made collapsible I-22s with 7 digit numbers starting with 55, 56, 57 or later. Most 1955 cameras seem to come with lens numbers beginning with 5 and most commonly 0 (not to be confused with 6 digit 1950 numbers). Most 1956 cameras have lens numbers beginning with 6 and followed by 0, 1 or 2. Same for 1957. The collapsible KMZ made I-50s fitted to the Zorki 5 released in 1958 start with 80. My theory based on this obsevation is that rather than being an exception, betwen 1955 and 1958, the first digit only signifies the year and then the numbers count up consecutively from 0 or some base number so plenty of 60s, 70s and 80s. I have seen x00xxxx numbers but not x000xxx numbers.

It looks to me that KMZ may have first introduced the I-50 in about 1956, discontinued I-22 production in 1957 and discontinued I-50 production in 1958. Collapsible I-50 production by LZOS seems to have commenced in 1957 and continued to at least 1970. LZOS numbers certainly seem to use the year for the first two digits.

Regards,
Paul

Hello,
Thanks to Ulrich and I totally agree with Paul about the later I-22. For example, and only for cameras from 1950/51, I have the KOMZ serial number 5021081 on my Zorki-Zorki n° 32870. All that seems coherent.

But I don't understand the very early numbering. For instance, JLP talks about serial numbers of more 10000 for the K330/332, and I have a # 11359 K330. But what can it mean? These lenses can be found only on Fed-KMZ and Fed-Zorki: so 4500/5000 cameras maxi. And KMZ had no other camera to put these lenses on. So, perhaps they used the same numbering for cameras, lenses, binoculars, and more generally all their production?

As for me, I don't have datas for very early KMZ lenses, as I have for Fed (of course!) and I regret that. If somebody has, it would be of a great help for all. I think!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

which one intersted ?


http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/fed-zorki-1949-no.05597-346-c-af5b0529c0

I had seen that 1949 Fed Zorki.
It has just been sold at 40000 kr (about 450Ђ). I had bidden more, but certainly I forgot to do something as I am not the winner...

Perhaps one of us had it?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello,

Just by pure chance I bought today the lens Industar-22 Moscow. I'm a big fan of I-22 and use a lot both rangefinder and SLR versions of it. I was curious about the very early version of I-22.

My sample lacks the original press tab on the focusing arm. It was replaced with the later flat version. You can imagine the way of how so valuable today cameras and lenses were repaired 60 years ago in Soviet Union. In order to fit the new tab a repairman has ground off the part of surface on mounting plate together with the serial number. I can still recognize the traces of the number 4282 (or 4289).

The most interesting is the prehistory of the lens. Of course I wanted to know what happened with the camera. The seller told me that he was also curious and asked this question the original owner of the lens. The owner lives in some small village near Kiev. He wanted to sell some unnecessary photographic rubbish. When the guy who sold me the lens saw this Industar and asked for the corresponding camera. The owner answered that he has Zorki and could offer it with an another lens for 10 euros. The only problem was that the camera was kept in the flat of the owner's son. When the seller arrived to this flat and inspected Zorki he discovered that it was early Zorki (but not FED-KMZ or FED-Zorki) fitted with the ZK lens. Meanwhile, the son of the original owner checked in internet the prizes for the lens and of course asked for the camera much more than 10 euros .

So it seems that the lens was separated with the original camera already in 1950-1951. Sounds rather strange. If the camera failed to work properly then there is no reason to separate the body with the optics since that time the camera could be repaired easily. Most probably the owner of the camera fitted it with the later coated Industar and sold this early version. At least the previous owner possessed this lens and Zorki with ZK since 1950.









It is also funny that this lens does not fit properly the thread of FED NKVD (I mean the correct position of the distance scale) This fact is very surprising for me. Probably I missed something. I thought that all pre-war FED's threads are the same and equal to the early Zorki's ones.

No, no, you have not missed anything!

The 1b and 1c could have different positions for the infinity button (globally from 7 to 11 o'clock). It is said that the position of the four screws was regulated for each camera/lens at the factory. The regularity (8 o'clock) was obtained from 1938-39, as it seems.

That can lead to funny looks. I have put a postwar Fed lens on a NKVD: the infinity button is at 3 o'clock...

Concerning the lenses on a Fed Zorki, the ZKs were expensive and sought after, certainly from the origin (1948). We could imagine a parallel market... On one of my FZ, the original lens (which one?) was changed against a 1950 Industar 22 K350...

For the rest, there was a normalisation about the pitch after the war. Before the war: 1 mm by turn. After the war (I don't know the exact date for Fed): 0,976 mm by turn: the Leica gauge. That explains why the postwar lenses generally don't fit the prewar Fed. Or you must force. Or the thread is worn!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Thank you, Jacques, for explanation. But now I don't understand why this lens does not mount properly on my Zorki-Zorki 1953 So now I understand that it took some time on KMZ to make the transition to the regular thread that we find on 50's Zorkis. Just recently I was almost convinced that the thread should be similar to the pre-war FED.

By the way, the performance of I-22 Moscow is not bad as I afraid. My pre-war Fed 3.5/50mm of 1939 is in perfect condition but the uncoated I-22 beats it in performance. But it could be my subjective judgement.

We always speak of standardization "1mm pitch vs Leica pitch", not about the position of the infinity button? Can you mount this lens on your ZZ without forcing?

As far as I know, all the production of KMZ was standardized since the beginning. Are there exceptions? Not impossible: the very first Industar "Moscow" were made with prewar Fed parts. That would mean that the FZ on which this lens was mounted was not standardized... But in that case, the ZK which you speak of would not fit: I'm sure that all were standardized...

Certainly there are KMZ specialists here

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Yes, it would be interesting to hear the opinion of KMZ specialists. Here are photos of FED and Zorki fitted with the original optics and with Industar-22 Moscow. You can see the positions of the focusing knob which I set to infinity lock.

On one of my Fed S, the precedent owner had turned the lens plate of 90° clockwise. I have used that disposition to put one of my LTM Sonnars = perfect.

I have too an early Industar "Moskva" not coated with tomb s/n 11358: probably a K332, by Princelle. I have just tried it on different bodies. Infinity button at 3 o'clock on a NKVD 1d, at 5 on a 1948 Fed Zorki, at 6 on a Zorki 1b, idem on a 1955 Zorki...

I wonder on which body it is OK!

Jacques.