Fed Red Flag

Hello,

I have had my Red Flag for some weeks. And looking for other pictures of that camera on the net, I am a bit surprised by the differences between these cameras: fake or variations due to factory difficulties ...?

So, perhaps we could put together what we know. When a camera is rare, it is difficult to compare it with the other items of the series...

First, a general view of this # 200209 Fed Red Flag:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 001.jpg

Next message about the cover.

Jacques.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 005.jpg

The cover shows the famous inscription with "FED" just above the serial number. As far as I know, all looks correct on that cover, except that the last but one line (two letters) does not exist. It's not the first time that there is something missing on the cover of a Fed 1 or 2. But there can be too other explanations...




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 006.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1152012_Fed Red Flag 007.jpg

Two other detailed pictures of the same part.
I will go on later. All comments and comparisons are welcome!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Jacques,

I have checked my Red Flag, and it certainly matches the description in Jean Loup Princelle's book. The wind and rewind knobs have much finer milling than the standard FED of the time. The body covering is much smoother and most importantly, the shutter housing is made of brass not aluminium. I hope this helps.

David.

Thanks, David. Of course it helps: the milling of the knos, the body covering and the brass shutter cage are certainly the main features common to all the Fed "Red Flag".

But I wonder if there are other common features. And if genuine variations can exist.

We know the factory had really important difficulties to restart the production in the years 1946-48. A possible series of 1e was probably mounted in 1946 at Kharkov with parts coming from Berdsk. After, it's the Red Flag. Was it made with parts made at Kharkov? Totally? Partially? Are there parts which can come from a prewar board ? If yes, one can find genuine variations. If no, fakes lie under them.

For example, the milling of the knobs.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 009.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 010.jpg

No doubt: it is finer than the on the 1c, d, e,f and g. It looks like the 1a and first 1b's. But I cannot decide if it is exactly the same or not. The (evident) question is: did they found 1a and b's buttons and put them on the Red Flags? Can we find other buttons on Red Flags which "seem" genuine? David, are the buttons of your RF exactly like mine?

I go on with other detailed pictures!

Now, the disconnecting button.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 003.jpg

I have not found in my prewar Feds such a coarse milling. It exists too on early Fed 1f: my 1f # 210921 has exactly the same, my # 215495 has a finer milling (and a slimmer button). We can suppose that this type of button was specially made for the RF and used after on 1fs.

On the RF like on all the prewar cameras and the first 1f, there is a hollow near this button:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 004.jpg

So, we can suppose that a RF without that hollow is not a genuine one!

The metallurgy of the cover is interesting. For example, the angles near the speed button.
On my RF, these angles seem blunt, much more than on the other RF I have seen on the net.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 002.jpg

On the other hand, JLP shows in his book the RF # 200161 with the same blunt angles. Does that mean something about metallurgy? A sub series of some RF? I don't know...
The other Feds of the same period (1e and f) have sharper angles.

The two last points (for me) seem common to all the genuine RF: the cover of the body and the brass shutter cage.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 008.jpg

One can find this cover with "horizontal" pattern only on the RF and the very early 1f. As for the shutter cage, brass was the rule till the # 110000/120000, then it was replaced by aluminium. After the RF, brass was used on 1f (very roughly till # 250000), then aluminium was re used.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252012_Fed Red Flag 013.jpg

I have seen these two features on all the RF, except Alain's one which had an alu shutter box and a regular (1d type) body cover. It's interesting to know, as Alain had bought his RF at a time when it was not interesting to make fakes...

Well, I am now at the end of the pictures I had prepared for this topic.
I would be very happy if we could discuss about all that...

One more detail, probably the strangest: my RF has a yellow rangefinder. What about yours, David, Alexander...? I don't know other Fed with such a colour. But the TSVVS has it too!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello Jacques,
I checked my NKAP and made some photos of the camera:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0430.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0435.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0436.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0437.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0438.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0439.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0442.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1452012_IMG_0446.JPG

I tried to make photos similar to yours. You can compare them and make your opinion.
The first, what seems to me a little strange is an engraving on the top plate. Your engraving has no "им." ("named after") between "завод" and "Ф.Э.Дзержинского".

Regards, Alexander

Thanks, Alexander for your pictures!
As I have said, I am a bit surprised too by the lack of the two letters.
The other interesting difference is the corners of the cover (soft on mine, sharp on yours).
For the buttons, it seems they are the same.

What about the shutter cage? Alu or brass? And about the rangefinder? Yellow or not?

Thanks again. Jacques.

Jacques,
shutter cage is brass, rangefinder spot is yellow.
If you need more photos, let me know.

Regards, Alexander

Great!
So, the Red Flag could be the only Fed to have a yellow rangefinder. The same as the TSVVS's... But two owners, it's not enough to make a rule...

Here, there are some more Red Flags. Curious, even if we consider that the factory had problems to restart the production...
http://hylee617.tripod.com/hylee617/russian/fed/fed1eftg.htm

Amitiйs. Jacques.

No news about the yellow colour of the rangefinder?

Jacques.

While looking for new serials to add to the wiki I came across several cameras which seem a bit different than the ones shown here. Do you think they are original?

At DVD Collection:
#200680
#201702 with Sonnar
http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/1/5.htm

From hylee617:
#200006 "prototype" with notched finder window
#200202
http://hylee617.tripod.com/hylee617/russian/fed/fed1eftg.htm

What makes me wonder is that in both cases, the engravings of the two cameras shown together look the same yet the engravings at DVD are slightly different from the ones at hylee617.

Also - Vlad, could you link this thread to the corresponding wiki entry?

Regards,
Christian

It is very difficult to say if a Red Flag is genuine or not. In fact, it largely depends on what we will find in the Fed Berdsk topic...

If Red Flags were made of recovered parts, as I feel, no doubt we could admit some variations. But it is a personal idea, not even a theory...

Nevertheless, the engravings should probably be always the same, which excludes one of the Red Flags you show. As for the DVD's, the s/n 201702 looks interesting, with the belt (and the vulcanite) of an early 1c. Genuine made from early parts or not genuine?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

PS: more than 1000 posts, already...

Jacques
Congratulations for coming to the Family of the thousands...
kind Regards
LP

And I still have a long way to 100 posts...

Jacques, how can you tell #201702 has early 1c Parts? You mean the half-visible screw near the lens mount?

.)none of the 4 cameras has a "dent" near the rewind knob
.)I can't see the specific NKAP-Vulcanite pattern in any of the cameras
.)not sure about the coarse milling of knobs, what do you think?

Should I add the serials to the wiki?
Which additional categories should we include?
Vulcanite/milling/?
I feel we have more exceptions than rules.

However if it's true that new machinery was built from scratch at Berdsk, new inexperienced workers had to be trained and some leftover parts from Kharkov were also used, this seems to make perfect sense.
Unfortunately this makes the camera rather easy to fake.
Check out these crude fakes:
http://www.ebay.at/itm/FED-1-NKAP-Rare-Russian-Leica-Copy-Camera-EXCELLENT-/390644388313?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item5af43851d9
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Camera-FED-NKAP-Lens-cap-Spool-s-n-0034-/161057454007?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item257fc5b7b7
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Camera-FED-NKAP-Lens-cap-Spool-s-n-0099-/181168263312?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item2a2e785090

Regards,
Christian

And I still have a long way to 100 posts...

Jacques, how can you tell #201702 has early 1c Parts? You mean the half-visible screw near the lens mount?

.)none of the 4 cameras has a "dent" near the rewind knob
.)I can't see the specific NKAP-Vulcanite pattern in any of the cameras
.)not sure about the coarse milling of knobs, what do you think?

I added the serials to the wiki, please remove r mark them if you feel any of the 4 cameras is fake.

Really hard to tell, I feel we have more exceptions than rules.

However if it's true that new machinery was built from scratch at Berdsk, new inexperienced workers had to be trained and some leftover parts from Kharkov were also used, this seems to make perfect sense.
Unfortunately this makes the camera rather easy to fake.
Check out these crude fakes:
http://www.ebay.at/itm/FED-1-NKAP-Rare-Russian-Leica-Copy-Camera-EXCELLENT-/390644388313?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item5af43851d9
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Camera-FED-NKAP-Lens-cap-Spool-s-n-0034-/161057454007?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item257fc5b7b7
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Camera-FED-NKAP-Lens-cap-Spool-s-n-0099-/181168263312?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item2a2e785090

Regards,
Christian

Thanks, Luiz, for your congratulations!
Happy you are the one to open the doors for me...

Christian, I think you won't be long to attain the 500 posts!
I know the NKAP you notice.
For me, there are at least two rules:
- the serial number must be between 200000 and 201800. No possible exception,
- the engravings must be the same. A notable point is the C (of CCCP) which must have a flat head.

I would have added the special vulcanite and the shutter box made of brass. But if NKAP-s were made from spare parts...

I will have a look at the wiki as soon as possible.

Amitiйs. Jacques.
PS: the s/n 201702 has a central screw half hidden and the vulcanite of last 1b/early 1c. It was certainly made with parts of the 54xxx/60xxx series.

Christian,

I am OK with the wiki concerning the Red Flag. For the moment! But perhaps you are a bit too fast...
That said, the s/n 200006 is curious, with this cover never made by Fed. Borrowed to a Leica Couplex or III(F), as it seems.

Jacques.

Hello Alexey!

Does this really concern Red Flag cameras or rather FED1'a'?

For FED1'a' see here:
http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2406

Regards,
Christian