USSRPhoto.com

Forums / Collectors and Users Open Forum

FED-S camera and lens s/n needed for statistics

80 posts in this thread showing replies 61-79 of 79
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
Looking at your last graphs, these gaps could mean that the productions of S bodies and 2/50mm were not co-ordinated... About the 1d s/n 164433, an interesting detail concerning this camera. I bought it without lens. When I tried the wartime LTM Sonnar, I was astonished to see that the position of infinity was perfect. On checking the camera, I saw that the lensplate had been turned of 90° clockwise. Possibly Fed had no more available 2/50mm...

I have begun to complete the wiki about the S, the 1e, the Red Flag and the Fed Arsenal. All these cameras are related together. And for the moment, I am astonished by the number of "irregular" 1e and 1eS, with Fed B parts, or even with Fed Arsenal ones (!!), without lenses or with lenses other than the regular 2/50mm... Certainly, all the existing Fed 1e were not mounted at Kharkov, especially the last ones!

I stop there for the moment!

Amitiés.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
Huge thanks Niko80 for reviving this thread.

I have added a my pair of FED 2/50 lens and my FED 1d camera (Lens #32726 and FED-S #172936) to related wikipages one week ago, so they are probably included in graphs and should fit perfectly in the line.
The shutterbox of my FED has "21/V" scratched on the side, that probably means it passed quality control on May 21 1941 according to this page
https://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=9


Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
quote:
Originally posted by mirror

Huge thanks Niko80 for reviving this thread.

I have added a my pair of FED 2/50 lens and my FED 1d camera (Lens #32726 and FED-S #172936) to related wikipages one week ago, so they are probably included in graphs and should fit perfectly in the line.
The shutterbox of my FED has "21/V" scratched on the side, that probably means it passed quality control on May 21 1941 according to this page
https://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=9



You are completely right!
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
Hi Luigi,

In this thread, we normally discuss about the Fed S and their 2/50mm lenses.
About the "ordinary" NKVD, the lens is more or less in the range of the s/n of the body.
It seems the case for your 1c camera s/n 56450 with the s/n 54779 (if I read well) for the lens.

As for "14", it's a factory technical number.

Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
Thank you for your contributions, it seems my graphs are already outdated again!Wink
It would be great help to know which of your camera/lens pairs were purchased separately and definitely are not original.

Fred:
Your lens is likely 31xxx, we do not have FED 50mm f/2 in the 37xxx range to my knowledge. Maybe you can post a photo?

Jacques, for now I have excluded the odd serial numbers because I do not know what to do with them. But they are certainly enigmatic.
About your Leica II fake #128698 with 2/5cm #28597/8: Do you think it was once a genuine FED S? The serial numbers would be matching so I guess I should include this pair?

I found two more lens-camera pairs on ebay, both of which match very well:
FED S 'c' 65658 Lens 21547
FED S 'd' 129233 Lens 28599

I will update all graphs during the weekend, the last ones I posted contain some minor copying errors like switched digits in some cases but nothing dramatic. Overall things have not changed much from 2013 despite an enormous increase in samples. If anything, the model I proposed on page 1 was strengthened but still a lot of things leave me puzzeled. More conclusions and graphs next time.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply

You are right about the pairs, Christian. I will add that in the wiki for my own ones. Of course, the fact that we had bought the camera and the lens together does not make a proof, but it's better than nothing.

About the fake Leica, I have just checked again. It's an original Fed S 1d; you can count the couple 128698/28597 as original. Anyway, impossible to share them, as the s/n 128698 is written too on the beauty ring!

I am still puzzled by the 2/50mm lenses beyond # 30000. Not really understandable, as they overlap the 6,3/100mm series (c. 30000 to 39999). Perhaps we will solve that mystery later...

Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
Good news, I managed to find all my old FED data including photos of my collection and the old graphs!
So I should be able to restore everything, might take a while though. Page 1 should be fine again, let me know if anything does not add up, I had to make a few changes.

The camera/lens pair graphs above are updated as well.

Now what strikes me most is that though the number of FED S camera/lens pairs has doubled since the first graph, virtually nothing changed. The model I proposed in 2013 is still perfectly valid.
As I had forgotten everything I did all calculations from zero and only noticed afterwards I got virtually the same results as back in 2013.

I'll show you:
Sorry for this cluttered graph, take your time and I hope you'll understand.



Basically we see a fundamental difference in the way lens serials were assigned to FED S 'c' cameras than to FED S 'd' and 'e' ones.

As I concluded in 2013 the ratio is 1:11 for 'd' models and this is highly certain. No matter how many cameras we add I doubt we'll end up anywhere else than between 1:10 and 1:12. Also the model correctly predicts the number of manufactured cameras and lenses.

The fundamental questions are:

1) How did they manage to achieve this?
I looked into the serial distribution of FED-S to find patterns of how cameras were picked from the range of FED1 cameras to become an 'S'. Though the distribution is most likely not completely random I have not come up with any clues. What I can rule out is that regularly larger batches were converted to FED S. We'd see a stair-like distribution which we don't - it seems completely linear on the resolution we have. However from the current data we cannot see what is going on in the range of dozens of cameras. Hundreds at best. And the model suggests roughly every 10th FED1 was a FED S.

What we can also rule out is independent production of cameras and 50mm f/2 lenses and then picking random cameras for FED S conversion. This does not work, and would lead to random blob-like distribution, not our almost but not completely perfect line of 'd' cam/lens pairs.
I normally work with environmental data and I have never seen a distribution like this. It certainly shows well-planned human work but also not some perfectly executed industrial process.

If I would not color them in the graphs you could not discern 'd' from 'e' at all.
Look at the 4 lenses perfectly on the regression line and a fifth only a bit above it.
How can we explain this if the factory was evacuated to Siberia? Impossible to retain exactly the same production ratio under such circumstances. Fact is - the latest known FED S'e' pair #181306 / 33408 (Fed plate mounted Sonnar), the rightmost blue dot, fits the regression line perfectly. I find it hard to believe that anything fundamentally would have changed in production up to this serial range. The 'outliers' are so far out and random seems strange they would intermittedly use these old lenses in the factory and then resumed their perfect cam:lens ratio shortly after. I do not think these lenses are original.



To me it seems like they planned beforehand which lens serial was to be assigned to a certain camera serial range (in the hundreds), but not to an individual camera. Meaning 50mm f/2 lens production followed FED1 production, not FED-S production.
Also we do not see lens batches at all. It appears lens output was strictly coupled to FED1 production. If camera serials rose by ten, lens serials rose by one. And this for the entire 'd' range and seemingly well into 'e' production without any disturbances. Another amazing detail.



In contrast something fundamentally different was going on during 'c' production. the pairing of cameras and lenses was far more fuzzy and roughly followed an 1:7,5 ratio. But maybe even less down to 1:6? It seems the beginning and end of FED S'c' productuion was chaotic. In order to arrive at around #54.000 for lens 20.000 initially more cameras had to be picked to become 'S' than later on. Either they alerady had lots of 50mm f/2 lenses when FED'c' production started or they could not keep up FED S procuction and had to settle for fewer ones? Also towards the end there appear to have been serious problems. We have few FED S cameras in the range 80.000 - 95.000 and they have odd lenses. Likewise the expected lenses in the range 24.000 - 25.750 we know of ended up with much later 'd' and even an 'e' camera.




Now regarding the curious number of 33.5xx 50mm f/2 lenses:
I always found it weird to plan the maximum number of components beforehand. Keep in mind that in contrast to all other items the 50mm f/2 was not an 'accessoir' to be bought separately but was sold with the FED S. So we can assume that if more cameras than planned were produced they also had to exceed the lens number.
However lens 30.000 falls in the mid 'd' range and we see nothing unusual there. Anyway I think there are way stranger things about the FED S than the 'excess' 3.500 lenses.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply

What a work!

So, a ratio of 1:11 for the S-d and e, and around 1:7 for the S-c. An important difference, in fact. All that with a regular distribution for the first ones, and a more hazardous pairing for the "c". For the beginning of the S-c series, there are of course the usual explanations: starting with new material, supplies, training of workers... But is it enough? For the end, I have noticed that some of the s/n 90/95000 had already the speedbox of the 1d after c. 11xxxx: made of magnetic metal rather brass (perhaps repair too?). Anyway, I don't see anything important in the history of Fed to explain the irregularities you have found. For what we know about their history: very little, in fact...

Probably I exaggerated a bit about the "mystery" of the lenses beyond # 30000... But the overlapping in the 2/50 and 6,3/100 numbers is surprising in itself: Fed will found other solutions (later) to avoid that problem. It's that fact that made me think that 10000 Fed S were originally planned.

Concerning the S-e, all seems right in the pairing bodies/lenses up to the 181306/33408: you have noticed it. But after, there is no rule between the bodies and lenses. In fact, the 33408 is the last number in the wiki. I suppose that a certain number of S-e did not find "their" 2/50mm and it could be why we find them without lens (I have just bought one), or with a 3,5/50mm. The extra 3500 2/50mm lenses would not have ben sufficient...

And about the last 500 or 1000 1e, very probably some of them, by their poor quality, were mounted elsewhere from parts to become Fed-Arsenals or Red Flags.

But all that is really another story. Thanks for your great job, Christian!

Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
Interesting about the late 'c' models!

We should not forget that the serial is only on the top plate. Maybe they had still some 'c' plates left while already producing 'd' cameras? The last 'c' pair matches the 'd' distribution perfectly and has little gap, see the red circle on the left in the FED S'c' camera against lens distribution graph (all green, 2 pics above).
There definitely was not an abrupt change from 'c' to 'd', rather gradual with some possible gap towards late 'c'.

Concerning 'e' I think the main conclusion is that cameras up to #181.306 most likely were prduced at Kharkow under normal circumstances. You are right about the latest cameras having no or odd lenses, I agree they may be produced elsewhere. I would also propose that 50mm f/2 lenses were only produced and available at Kharkow hence cameras assembled after evacuation had none.

I wanted to see if we can extrapolate the end for FED S camera and 50mm f/2 lens production.
The highest known FED S serial is #183.892 (unknown lens), the highest known 50mm f/2 lens serial is 33.509 for camera #177.376. That's a bit above the line but not much. May as well be factory matched, I can't say with the current data.

Our regression model suggests a camera serial of #181.400 - #182.500 for lens 33.500.
All later cameras have odd lenses so they fall out of the prediction range of the model. This suggests little more than 33.500 lenses were produced but FED S'e' camera production - or assembly - continued up to at least 184.000. We can assume things went chaotic after a possible evacuation and the last cameras may never been sold and got lost in the turmoil of war but still - my current estimate is that lens production stopped shortly after 33.500 and camera production around #184.000 - at least higher serials never made it out of the factory.

We can be relatively sure there is some gap between FED'e' and Red Flag, otherwise the later would not have started exactly at 200.000.

Too bad so many lenses of late 'e' cameras are unknown, do you maybe have a way to contact those collectors for info?

Also I saw the latest FED S'e' is not listed as FED S in the FED1e wiki. Are we sure this is a FED S?
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply

Thanks, Ihar. Added in the wiki.
Christian: I have sent several PM to owners about 2/50 serial numbers.
Hope they will allow you to complete your work...

Just two ideas more. The changing 1c/1d was certainly gradual, as it was for the 1b where we can observe several modifications which overlap each other at the same time. But that changing during 15000 serial numbers is a bit long. I wonder if it was not a question of repairs too. Unless it corresponds to a shortage of brass and that the remaining stock was used without real order.

And about the "heirs" of the S, there was probably the Fed-Zorki too. Very roughly, 2000 to 3000 of them certainly have a Fed shutter box...
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply

I have just added some mentions (lens original/lens added) after the answers I had.
Two observations: the lens 27890 on my 76862 was added (and not original: my mistake). And visibly, the 147794 is an error of typing for the 146794, of which I know the owner. So the 147794 was cancelled.

Bon courage. Jacques.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
Great find, Ihar!
Another perfect match to the regression line, the lens for this camera is only 8 serials off from the prediction of the model!! I am now certain that at least within the range we know, 'e' followed the same production procedures as 'd'.

If you want to try:

FED S 'c':
camera = (lens - 12983) / 0,1337
lens = 12983 + (0,1337 * camera)

FED S 'd/e':
camera = (lens - 17067) / 0,0906
lens = 17067 + (0,0906 * camera)

Thank you, Jacques, every late 'e' lens would count.
I have already omitted #147794 in the latest graphs. It is good to see #76862/27890 is not an original pair too, it further strengthens my model.

I will do further graphs over the weekend.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply

I have just received the 1e S s/n 182757, already in the wiki (without lens).
Interesting, as the RF patch is blue, like on Zorkis. It's the only one in my 1e series ("Berdsks" and Red Flags).
A late mounting or a repair...
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply

Just a remark about my twins, the S s/n 67723 and the ordinary NKVD s/n 67724. I had forgotten to talk about them in this thread...

They are absolutely identical. All is the same, even the very light step for the three last ciphers which are not exactly on the same line as the two first ones.

Internally, the engraved date shows 23/VII for the NKVD, and 26/V? (certainly VII too) for the S. So, an interval of 3 days for the certification of the S (checking of the mechanism and adaptation of the lens). Everything seems square...

Amitiés. Jacques.
Reply with Quote Edit Reply Delete Reply
I have recieved the FED-S lens without s/n, it looks like some early lens with brown aperture blades. It has coupling number though.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112020_20201114_185716.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112020_20201114_190059.jpg




Here is some pictures for comparison with two other lenses, №24129 with blue blades and one of the very late №32726 from may 1941.





http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112020_20201114_185536.jpg



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112020_20201114_185931.jpg



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112020_20201114_185446.jpg



What I noticed is different apart of aperture blades color is knurling on infinity fixator and different font used to mark f-number.
Caps are also different.




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/14112020_20201114_190450.jpg

Reply to Topic

Forum code enabled