ZK 1948 lenses

Hello,

I just received a very nice Kiev/Contax ZK 1948 collapsible lens, number 000805. I was looking at the numbers compiled by Jacques (thanks!) and found :

Higher serial for body : 1814
Higher serial for lens : 3963

Also, very often, the lenses have a much higher serial than the bodies. This is not the case in 1947. Assuming the numbering is sequential and not arbitrary, is it safe to assume that in 1948 :
- roughly 2000 Kiev II were produced
- 2000 ZK 5cm f/2 in Kiev mount and another 2000 in LTM mount ?

Also, were all those lenses produced with German optical parts? is there still a Zeiss number on them, like on some 1.5 5cm?

I compared it to other lenses :


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292013_tous.jpg

A close up shot of the ZK 1948 (left) and the ZK Zorki 1950 (right):


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292013_zk_cote.jpg

The ZK 1948 lacks a big screw in the mount : all other variants have one ... It also has a red felt ring in the collapsible mount, showing through the holes.

If I understand, it's the question of genuineness once more...

Difficult to answer your questions...
I have several ZK lenses, and when I look at closely, I am not able to say if they are genuine or not...

For example, my ZK 1948/003963 (bayonet mount) looks good, but it is a rigid one. And it has no Zeiss number.
And my LTM 1947 (!!) one , s/n ZK 1947/000918 is rigid too, and always without Zeiss number...

I would think that the last one is probably a fake, and the first possibly a genuine one. But the more I look after these lenses (including war and postwar Zeiss and early Jupiters), the less I understand all that mess...

To be positive, my Sonnar 2/5cm bayonet mount s/n 2935976 has one screw only. With that number, it should be a ZK. And the s/n 1883791 and 2256336, always 2/5cm bayonet have two screws. So, the "one screw" are probably a Russian mount.

My other Sonnars are rigid ones.

Good luck for your research!

Jacques.
PS: certainly you know Aidas's site, most interesting about these lenses:http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?-1090910983

Thanks for the informations! Yes I know this site (thanks Aidas!), it is my reference concerning soviet gear. So if I understand well (and like you, the more I look at it, the more it is confusing, and there is no definite book/resource about it yet):
- most lenses, German or Soviet, have two screws
- my ZK 1948 and your late wartime/postwar Sonnar has only one (I assume here that both are originals)
- none of your ZK f2 lenses bear Zeiss numbers

I don't see why mine would be a "fake" : it is clearly slightly different in many little details from either my two regular Sonnar or my 1950 ZK Zorki which I bought from a collector (he bought it a very long time ago, long before it was interesting to fake soviet items, so it is probably genuine). I do not seen the point of tampering with it, as it does not sell for a higher price than another Zeiss or ZK Zorki.

I see everywhere that ZK lenses have Zeiss glass in them. I do not doubt it for the 5cm 1.5 : mine has a real Zeiss serial, listed in Thiele as produced in 1945 without mount. But for the collapsible ?

My theory is that, because your late Zeiss 2935976 and my ZK 000805 have only one screw, they could have been from the same batch of prototypes : some parts being shipped as is, some being shipped assembled with a Zeiss serial. So the Soviet workers could be trained. Or some would have been sold right away by Zeiss Jena with a Zeiss serial, and other sent in the Soviet Union not assembled. I do not explain the difference in the number of screws. But right now, I do not think we have a definitive proof that those objective have Zeiss glass in them. We would need more info...

Note : your 1948 003963 could have been easily remounted in a rigid mount...

I agree with your conclusions. I am only sure of a fact: the 1947 and 1948 ZK, bayonet or M39 mount which don't have a Zeiss number are doubtful... And certainly not original if they are rigid, at least for the '47 and the early '48.

Of course, if the rear triplet was changed for repair and all that remounted in a rigid body...

I had forgotten my LTM Sonnar 2/5cm, s/n 2711193 on the beauty ring, (2)936760 on the rear triplet (same batch as my 2935976), 1713 on the rangefinder barrel, "M" mark for meter. By Thiele, it should be a bayonet Sonnar. The different parts were probably sent to KMZ and mounted together. Perfectly regulated for my wartime Fed S.

Amitiйs. Jacques.