Unknown Zenit-1 prototype? Please help!

Hello everyone,

To keep the long story short - I've been corresponding with the owner of this camera (a member on this site - although inactive) for quite a while, having long discussions about this camera.

I have an opinion and the owner has an opinion, but I want to hear your expert opinions about this camera first before I present arguments from both sides, what do you think? Anything will be appreciated! Thanks!


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_FOTO8990.JPG



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_FOTO8999.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_FOTO8996.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_FOTO8994.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_IMG03.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_IMG01.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_IMG02.jpg

At least it is na strange example.
See this Picture from Dennis MO (the maker of a reflex and a rangefinder cвmera in the French site Collection d'appareils photographiques de Silvain Halgand.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_Dennis MO.png
This cвmera is from 1954 and has the front leather on prism. The lens is right, from the same era.
The shown Zenit is from 1950 and the lens is from 1955 which is slightly diferent from the Dennis picture. This sample has diopter correction at ocular and a strange arrow engraved on prism and no front leather. The square logo denotes experimental series.
At that era the production was low and several modification orders were accepted mainly for high grade officials.
I am curious in know your theories.
Regards
LP
PS I suspect the owner may be William Parkinson am I right?

No the owner is on the territory of former USSR (I'm not sure about specifics actually), he is a member but never posted anything before.

Discard the lens, we both believe it's not original to the camera.. I am puzzled by this though:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_i7M8GZGLW.jpg

This camera is from J.L. Princelle, (stole it from Aidas's site, sorry Aidas ) and it's #000003 from 1950. Notice the serial #s on both camera how they're presented, this mysterious one I've posted above is allegedly from the same year. Also I've never seen a rounded pentaprism like that this early, earliest example I know is from 1952... two years later.

And this is Zenit #0001 from 1950 as well: (from Zenitcamera.com)

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_zenit-1_01.JPG


But The owner brings up similarities with Zenit-L (c.1952) and tends to think that this camera was used as jumping point for Zenit-L with details such a KMZ logo engraved into pentaprism, the same bottom screws position and the same font on serial #.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_Zenit-L.JPG
(From Zenitcamera.com)

From owner:
Bottom of Zenit-L

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_zenitbottom.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_00002.jpg



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_IMG04.jpg

I am skeptical to say the least about the authenticity but some of these are good points that he brings up. Luiz, 5000002 would mean the second Zenit ever made... From everywhere I look I see KMZ experimenting with this kind of bodies in 1952 the earliest... the timeline here confuses me maybe if Zoom sees this thread he can chime in... where are all our Zenit experts?

I'll translate the last two summary letters from the owner from Russian and post them here as well..
Best regards,
Vlad

correcting the link once that you posted does not work

http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/zenit-1/index.html

OK everything clear but what about the diopter adjustment?
and the little arrow at the left of the prism?

Regards
LP

Sorry for rough translation (combination of Google and my editing, but I'm also posting a Russian text next to it for members that can read it):

quote:

---

If you look at the photo of the front of the camera - you can see that angles at the sides of the inscription "Zenit" have more acute form than mass-produced copies and in some places visible dents in chrome. This technology is similar of manufacturing of prototypes. Another significant difference from all known Zenit-1's is that it does not bend like regular chrome edging on one side of the shaft
I think this proves that in any case the camera not made from any other model. That is done so originally.
I think the year of my camera is pointing at the beginning of the project - pre-production sample. And it may have been made in the duration of one and a half years, changed details, make changes, etc, this the serial # from 1950.

In the final revision, that is, in the production version is likely to have been made by technlogists.
removed diopter corrector, made ​​a dent with black leatherette on the front with the logo, as equipment has already been used on the prototype, put in an old speed dial in (manufactured in large quantities on the Zorkis) That in the final version of the product was reduced in cost mass produced.
I think my camera logically completes the entire line of ZENIT cameras prototypes . I do not think this is normal, when, after prototypes with angular pentaprism housings suddenly appeared a series like mine with a rounded form.
My camera is a link between all cameras lines of Zenit -1 ".

Если посмотреть на фото моей камеры спереди-то можно увидеть, что углы по бокам надписи ЗЕНИТ имеют более острую форму. чем в серийных экземплярах. и кое-где видны раковины в хроме. То есть технология изготовления похожа на технологию изготовления прототипов. Другое значительное отличие от всех известных Зенитов-1 - это ни на что не похожий изгиб окантовки хрома на боку шахты (Фото номер 3)
Мне кажется, это доказывает, что во всяком случае камера ни из чего не переделана. То есть, сделана так изначально.
Я думаю, что год моей камеры указывает на начало проекта -- предсерийный образец. И делать его могли и один и полтора года, менять детали, вносить изменения и т.д.
Окончательные изменения, то есть серийный вариант, скорее всего, внесли технологи:
Убрали корректор диоприй, сделали чёрную вмятину спереди с логотипом, т.к. оснастка уже использовалась на прототипах, поставили старую головку у выдержек (изготовляемых в большом количестве на Зоркие). Что в конечном варианте позволило удешевить изделие и быстрее запустить его в производство.
Мне кажется, что моя камера логически завершает всю линейку прототипов камеры ЗЕНИТ. Я не думаю, что это нормально, когда после прототипов с угловатыми шахтами вдруг сразу же появилась серия с шахтой округлой формы.
Как раз моя камера и является связующим звеном всех камер Зенит -1”.

---

another letter from owner of the camera translated here:

quote:

---

Lens, of course, is not a original, 1955 year. But the years of production of the camera, I would say that the camera production in 1950 -1952. (I think then there were the first production samples) I think that the frame logo ZENIT first appeared on my camera, if that is deemed a pre-production sample.
   Most likely the camera was designed for the running of manufacturing techniques and visualization of its assembled.
   Also, if you look closely, you can see how some of the technical solutions transferred from my camera to the camera ZENIT L /
1 On these cameras are identical figures font numbers.
2 Factory logo on both cameras placed on chrome.
3 There is a common item on the bottom cover both cameras: if you look at photos of Zenith L-bottom view you can see the two screws. (photo attached). My camera has exactly the same screws which attach a bar (maybe for better fixation of the film.), Which can be seen on the photo number 04.
4 In both bodies there is a corrector diopter. (On Zenith L is less technological, probably because pentaprism was not enough room.)

Объектив, конечно, не родной, 55 года. Но о годах производства самой камеры я бы сказал так: камера производства 1950 -1952гг.(кажется тогда появились первые серийные экземпляры) Мне кажется, что логотип ЗЕНИТ впервые появился на моей камере, если считать это предсерийным образцом .
Скорее всего камера создавалась для обкатки технологии изготовления и визуализации её в собранном виде.
Ещё , если внимательно присмотреться, то можно увидеть, как некоторые технические решения перенесены с моей камеры на камеру ЗЕНИТ L/
1. НА этих камерах идентичны цифры шрифта номеров.(фото в приложении
2. Логотип завода на обоих фотоаппаратах сделан на хроме.
3. Есть общая деталь на нижней крышке обеих камер: если Вы посмотрите фото Зенита L вид снизу-то можно увидеть два винта. (фото в приложении). У моей камеры есть точно такие же винты.На них крепится планка(возможно для лучшей фиксации плёнки.),которую можно увидеть на фото номер 04.
4. На обеих камерах есть корректор диоптрий.(на Зенит L он менее технологичный, т.к. наверное в шахте не хватило места.)

---

Luiz I think the arrow was drawn by the owner with a pencil to demonstrate a point in his letter regarding the angles...

observe another thing:
the shown cвmera allegedly stated as 1950 has a molded body of different construction of angled prism counterparts (see the trim around the body leather)and belong to the experimental series as stated on Zenit page
LP

the arrow seems to be engraved on metal
let's know correctly
Regards
LP

Luiz are you talking about the molding lines between the camera leather and the chrome parts? That this prototype has it like later versions and the sharp angled pentaprism prototypes do not?

exactly!

here the picture
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_zenit variations.png

Good point! That also helps determine the age of the camera...

I asked the owner of the camera about the arrow via email, will let you know. Also I asked if he could participate in here directly. We'll see if he can.

Cheers,
Vlad

I've been also communicating with Bill Parkinson regarding this camera, here's what he had to say:

quote:

---

There is something that makes me think it has a possibility of being a prototype. That is the way the top plate looks to have been cut. What I mean is: If you look at the photo from the back, showing the serial number, you will see that there is a line where the top plate was cut, just to the right of the prism housing. Then it was put together, probably before the chrome plating was done. Tell me if you understand what I am referring to.

  I have seen this joining before on prototypes by KMZ. For example if you look closely at the photos of the Zorki-35m )that I once owned)on the wiki, you can see faint marks on the top plate on both sides of the accessory shoe (not sure if photos show two marks, but there was a cut mark on both sides of the shoe). So, I know that the way KMZ made some prototypes was to join parts from existing cameras. In your Zenit case, maybe the prism housing was joined to some other top plate from another camera.

  So those are some initial thoughts, but of course others could do it too, so I have not examined and thought about the other points in the thread yet. 

---

Hello guys,
very interesting example. What strucked me immediately, that the camera has three screws on the chrome strip at the rear top. So, it is the body of early Zorki.
The prism on the top? Hm..., it could be really some try to prototype the first Zenit, but it could be also some work of our "fantasy designers" from the former Soviet Union. OK, it is only my speculations, but I would be very happy, if you find any arguments for the prototype.

Regards, Alexander

Hello,

I am far from knowing well Zenits, and I am delighted by this thread!
Just two remarks:

- the molded parts indicate a "late" Zorki, in fact later than 1950 (made in 1951/53, after the JLP). These molded parts come with the two screws in the back, the rigidity allowing to spare a screw. Before, the Zorki 1a, 1b and of course all the Fed 1 had 3 screws on the back.

- This square logo is reputed to belong to the preserie production batch. Hence (I suppose!) the serial number with a year prefix. It seems that prototypes have serial numbers beginning with 000... at KMZ's. The square logo of the Zenit 1 prototype (with a cover angled, not rounded) is slightly different if I refer to the JLP.

Of course, the lens is not original.
All that makes me think of a camera made of parts of different years: do they work perfectly together?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Dear friends

When I saw the pictures first I was very skeptic but step by step I found details of the known prototypes 00001 and 00003:

- 3 screws on the back
- 2 screws in both sides of the chrom parts of the mirror housing

Very interesting also the modifications of the bottom with the center tripod mount witch not found there way in the production - too expensiv I think.

On the other side prism housing is some sort of home made, not so well done like on the other accepted prototypes.

The next step would be try to find differences between this probable prototype and early Zenit in the mechanic parts, will say inside the camera.

Best wishes - Guido


PS @ Jacques: The so called "Block Logo" Zenit was *not* a preserie camera, you can find them from 1952 to 1954. Alexander Schulz wrote an article about this in 2005 for the "Photographica Cabinett" (sorry it's in german): http://www.g-st.ch/privat/kameras/zenit1squarelogo.html

Thanks, Guido, for the article!
I was referring to the JLP who says about this "square logo-round top" (K1010)that it is a preserie with some hundreds of cameras only.

For the moment, it seeems to me that this camera is composed of:
- the base plate of a Fed Zorki or Zoki 1a (1948/50),
- the belt of a Zorki 1c (the moulding)(from 1951),
- the upper plate of a Fed Zorki to Zorki 1b (3 screws). For the front part, upper plate of a Zenit prototype (without screw),
- the rounded prism housing of a K1010 (preserie or beginning of production). Though this housing seems lower on this camera than on K1010s after photos ??
- buttons of K1010 too or after.

Difficult to think of a prototype made in 1950. Logically, it would be a camera assembled a bit later, for example to study the impact of a piece or another.
But these pieces (which seem from different dates) could too have been on tests at KMZ's as soon as 1950.

So....

Jacques.

Thank you everyone for your very constructive opinions thus far, here is my top concern about this camera and why I'm still skeptical about it: Molded die cast bodies only appear in 1951, yet this model seems to be using one and has a serial # of 1950. Luiz had an excellent point right away there. Being a prototype I can see it use at least Zorki-1a or Zorki-1b body for that, it's too early for Zorki-1c which what it seems to use.

I've had further conversations with Bill Parkinson about it and he also agrees with me now in regards to discrepancy of the timeline, Aidas (who had examined it carefully himself separately before and the overlapping serial# picture is his) and Alexey Nikitin also keep an nagative opinion regarding the authenticity.

There's a lot of stuff that is "off" on this camera in my opinion.. but then again, too many abormalities raise eyebrows as Guido pointed out the middle tripod socket..

Best regards,
Vlad

Hello Jacques

I know what Pincelle wrote in his book, dated 2004. Alexander Schulz made his research later and wrote his article in 2005.

To the facts of what you see:

--- the base plate of a Fed Zorki or Zoki 1a (1948/50)
Because of the two screws on the back part of the base plate? Well, nothing to say against, all early Zorki's used to have them for (for me) unknown reason. But take a look at this picture:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2102014_zenitbottom.jpg
Two locks - never seen on any Zenit, Zorki or FED - and a tripod mount in the center (found first in the 60th on Zenit? I didn't found the first one, but the Zenit E hadn't it for example).

--- the belt of a Zorki 1c (the moulding)(from 1951)
Like the first type of Zenit 1 (K1010, K1020 ...) had them from 1952 on.

--- the upper plate of a Fed Zorki to Zorki 1b (3 screws)
I think you meen the screws on the back? Like the 00001 and 00003 (K1000) prototypes do have (I've seen pictures).

--- For the front part, upper plate of a Zenit prototype (without screw)
Right, and two screws on the left and the right side, like the 00001 and 00003 (K1000) prototypes too. BTW two of this screws walked to the front in the production models.

--- the rounded prism housing of a K1010 (preserie or beginning of production)
With some differences, wider belts. Same hight as I can see.

--- buttons of K1010 too or after
Buttons like K1005 too ...

I would give this prototype the Princelle code "K1007"! ;-)

Well, one point of skepticism will stay: The year 1950 according the serial number. If this camera is "the missing link" between the prototypes (K1000, K1005) and the production models (K1010, K1020), then the development of the first Zenit has begun in 1949, better in 1948, because such a development usually takes years. In the same time the Zorki 2 prototype (later build as Zorki 3) was designd, the Zorki 1 line development was ongoing. But okay, it could be possible.

Other opinions are wellcome!

Best wishes - Guido

Guido, actually the middle tripod socket picture is not from this camera, I believe it's from the Zenit-L for comparison (provided by owner). The bottom of this camera is one of the first pictures