Russian made?

I'm somewhat confused about this allegedly Russian made camera:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Leica-Betriebsk-war-model-camera-Beautiful-Leitz-Russian-Made-Unique-/331369377374?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item4d27276e5e

Any comments?

Hi Okynek!

It's just a heavily modified FED or maybe a Zorki.. very nice work I must say.

Cheers,
Vlad.

Sure, this is not a Leica.

Seems it was a Zorki-1b before.

What can you tell about viewfinder window on this camera. Very hard to make that notch what very early FEDs have. Body looks like covered with brass plates on front and back, on sides most likely was used thin machined pipe cut in half. Aging done nicely. Engraving is OK, could be bit better for such camera, I would preferred original name or no engraving at all. Over all to me this is not your regular knocks-off FED/Zorki. A lot of work was put in to this camera. Probably price reflect this. Camera has few "issues", like lock on the bottom plate, it still chrome, some screws have chrome heads, black pint to thick in some places. But over all this is not your typical "fake". Could it be "prototype" for fantasy cameras what we see today? Could it be old modification from WWII time?

here is another interesting camera briefly show up on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FED-B-Russian-Leica-copy-1-1000-Speeds-Slow-Speed-Dial-1-2-50mm-RARE-148518-/271663988999?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3f406f8107&nma=true&si=t6pKmkkZ9gbel0c%252Fivd1En4uzVA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Seller claims that slow speeds are working correctly....

Hello Okynek

quote:

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Originally posted by okynek

But over all this is not your typical "fake". Could it be "prototype" for fantasy cameras what we see today? Could it be old modification from WWII time?

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I think it's a home made fake with some signs of artificial heavy use. Maybe the modification was made 20 years ago or last month, I don't know. But not earlier.

The price is much too high for such a bad fake. Okay there are more modifications than normal on such a camera but not worth more than lets say 100$ (without this silly Nazi sign maybe 150$) if someone really collect such stuff.

Just my opinion.

Best wishes - Guido

quote:

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Originally posted by okynek

here is another interesting camera briefly show up on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/FED-B-Russian-Leica-copy-1-1000-Speeds-Slow-Speed-Dial-1-2-50mm-RARE-148518-/271663988999?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item3f406f8107&nma=true&si=t6pKmkkZ9gbel0c%252Fivd1En4uzVA%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Seller claims that slow speeds are working correctly....

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Sure the slow speeds work, this IS a Leica.

Or I should say better, this was a Leica.

quote:

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Originally posted by Guido


without this silly Nazi sign maybe 150$

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Leica never would have made this kind of style.
Besides that there never was a Leica-II "Betriebsk".
And for what? A real Leica is not that expensive.

"Betriebsk." (don't forget the point after the name!) is German abbreviation for "Betriebskamera". It means "company camera", a camera for Leica employees for internal use and NOT for sale. I have seen many different Leica models in "Betriebsk." version.
This camera was definitely modified (may be home made), but I am not sure that it was modified from the russian FED or Zorki.
I see no reason to engrave "Betriebsk." on a fake.

Regards, Alexander

Hello Alexander

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexanderK

"Betriebsk." (don't forget the point after the name!)

(...)


I see no reason to engrave "Betriebsk." on a fake.

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Well, there is no dot after "Betriebsk" on the camera in question.

Why put "Betriebsk." on original Leica and fake it? I think for the price. And why put "Betriebsk." on a faked FED/Zorki camera? I think for the price too ... ;-)

Best wishes - Guido

You are right, Guido. Nowadays you can do anything for he price (unfortunately) and in some cases we are trying to find a genuine camera among 100 similar fakes...

Regards, Alexander

Hello Lenny

quote:

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Originally posted by Lenny
A real Leica is not that expensive.

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Ahh ... last auction at Westlicht in Vienna (March 25 this year):

Leica IID black, 1140 Euro (Lot 20)
Leica IIIf black, 1680 Euro (Lots 28, 29)
Leica IIId chrome, 2880 Euro (Lot 48)
Leica IIIf chrome "Betriebsk.", 2280 Euro (Lot 50)
Leica IIIf chrome Midland, 18000 Euro (Lot 53)
...

Okay the prices have gone down a little over the last years.

Best wishes - Guido

Hello Alexander

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexanderK

You are right, Guido. Nowadays you can do anything for he price (unfortunately) and in some cases we are trying to find a genuine camera among 100 similar fakes...

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It's a big problem for some rare models like FED-Zorkis. But with such fantasie camera is not a real problem because everyone who is interested and has read some books or take deeper looks to internet sites about this cameras will know that there are no black or golden FED (1) or Zorkis.

Best wishes - Guido

quote:

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Originally posted by Guido
It's a big problem for some rare models like FED-Zorkis. But with such fantasie camera is not a real problem because everyone who is interested and has read some books or take deeper looks to internet sites about this cameras will know that there are no black or golden FED (1) or Zorkis.

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Exactly Guido, those who are interested in a Leica should know how they must look like and only one difference should strike alarm.
Here the speed-dial is 25-50-100-250. There is no Leica using this, but it's normal on a Zorki-1e.
The time-wheel also has the vertical grip Like on a Zorki-1e. Leica never used that on a screw-mount body.
There is no step on the back-side of the top-plate on a Zorki. Leica-II has a step towards the speed-dial area (this is the easiest point to recognize a Leica-II).
And then there is of course everything under the bottom-plate and here it looks like a Zorki-1b.
I'm not an Leica expert but this Zorki was easy to recognize.

We have just the same problem for Zeiss/ZK/early Jup now. Real or not? I own a ZK, declared as fake by the seller, with ears for the diaph ring, and which is really a fake...

So, I wonder now about the Sonnars we can see on the net with Zeiss engravings on the rear: genuine or not? Really difficult to say if you don't have it in hands...

Jacques.

quote:

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Originally posted by Guido
Ahh ... last auction at Westlicht in Vienna (March 25 this year):

Leica IID black, 1140 Euro (Lot 20)

Okay the prices have gone down a little over the last years.

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Westlicht sold some cheaper ones too.

Here are some from ebay recently, each without shipping.
221577568121 Leica-II 301euro
171503683178 Leica-II 191euro
321554671038 Leica-III 203euro
390952250511 Leica-IIIc 244euro
There are many Leicas for less than 300euro.

I loved this one
381032474560
and this is not a copy.

The first cвmera is a Zorki for sure with Leica rangefinder
and several external modifications including top cover
the second one is a Leica in Fed dressing.
Simply
Regards
LP
PS I find much more a like joke than a fake in both cameras.

I completely agree with you, Luiz, including for the joke, at least concerning the 1st camera.
About the second (the so called B), I am less sure it's a joke!

Amitiйs. Jaques.

What
I would never imaging that someone made fake FED from Leica to get more money
Live and learn, live and learn

A genuine Fed B is beyond any price.
But who really knows what a genuine Fed B is?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

But who really knows what a genuine Fed B is?

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Here in the Wiki are two mentioned, #74386 and #173618. At least these owners might know. Both cams even might not be the same because one must be pre-war and the other post-war if I'm right. Would be interesting how they look like under the bottom plate.