Fed-1A or 1B?

Hi Everyone,
So the Leica II could have come after VOOMP and FAG? It's a nice thought, but I think unlikely! It would be nice if it were true, and would certainly cause a storm in the Leica community. No longer would collectors of the Leica be able to look down on us collectors of Soviet photo equipment.
In an earlier post Jacques pointed out two Fed-1-S cameras for sale with Fed-1-a serial numbers, (3909 and 4586) these are both in the Wiki catalogue.
I don't know what thoughts other forum members have, but to my mind these two cameras have been changed by someone since they left the factory. These serial numbers belong to a standard Fed-1 camera, not a Fed-1-S. Any other thoughts?
Best wishes, Jim

Hi Jim and all!

I don't go so far as that, Jim! And it would be too beautiful if the Leica community (to which I belong too!) could consider us with respect! But to be more serious, I really think that there were at that times diplomatic and industrial co-operations between Germany and Russia... Nothing political, of course: "eyes wide shut"! BTW, I would be very interested to have a clear translation of the third paragraph I am not sure to understand perfectly. If somebody....

If we come back to our oddities, I agree with you, Jim. The numbers before 55000 cannot belong to S-s which were not made before. So all numbers before 55000 seem illegitimate.
However, I have examined closely the 2013 which belongs to one of my friends and it is a perfect S 1c. Amongst the other ones (Bill's new entry in the Wiki), the strangest is probably the 1B serial # 25949 of DVD, which seems to be a 1d!

We have perhaps found an explanation for the 1b/1a. It seems we have now to generalize our proceedings, to go from Newton to Einstein, in other words! Of course, these cameras (the strange S-s) can simply be re-constructions... But in that case, why these non matching numbers??

Amitiйs. Jacques.
Edit to add "the strange S-s between brackets.

Hi,

one more interesting camera #1653 for sale on Molotok now. Seems to be Fed-1 (type c) this time ...

http://molotok.ru/item405515930_ochen_redkaya_dovoennaya_kamera_fed_n_1653_.html

Best Regards,
Aidas

Hello everyone,
This numbering anamoly seems to be growing into the 1c, and perhaps even the the Fed-S, though I can't imagine that the Fed factory would have replaced a standard Fed-1 with a Fed-S.
Jacques has now mentioned a Fed-1-c owned by a friend and having the serial number 2013. Aidas has brought another Fed-1-c to our attention with the number 1653, but in fairness to the seller of this camera he does say that the serial number belongs to an earlier model of Fed-1.
As for me I'm more confused than ever! I still believe that the Fed-1-b cameras with a Fed-1-a numbers are direct factory replacements.
With the later cameras, I suppose it's possible that Fed could have replaced these also, but somehow I don't think so.
One thing that worries me slightly is that a fairly high proportion of these cameras seem to come from just one or two sources.
Best wishes as always, Jim

Hi all,

I know that the two cameras I have, with this type of numbering, do not look to have been re-engraved and they came from a different source, so I would not worry about the authenticity of them in general.

I can't see the details of the top close enough on the DVD FED-1S and DVD FED-1B (it would actually not be FED-1S & B, as FED-1B had 1000th speed also) cameras to tell if they are authentic, but originally in my notes I had written that one or both may be fakes. Hard to tell with many of his camera because he has a habit of darkening in the engraved lettering with black paint!

I can believe that these were probably factory replacements and that they went on replacing the early models that couldn't be or were difficult to fix, even until 1941. I can also imagine, that if a person wanted a FED-1S as the replacement, as of course many photographers would, it would be an option if more money was paid and the camera was available in stock (still un-engraved), or if you were willing to wait for one to be made. Also, it seems that the FED Zavod did not actually give different serial numbers to the FED-1S cameras, even though they were different and were designated as different on the passports. The serial numbers were mixed in with the other regular FED-1 cameras.

Remember, to us an early FED is a rare and valuable thing, but to them (both user and factory) it was the inferior, crudely made, outdated version, and a new improved one would be much better.

Possibly I can also imagine that FED owners with political, professional, or social importance could make an exchange for a better model without the camera even being broken ... maybe this is another idea why these cameras exist, but not in the large numbers that you would think they would if they were just replacements for early broken cameras! This would be a way to upgrade without paying! Something maybe to think about also.

Regards, Bill

Dear friends

First of all, I don't know nothing about FED. Beside from the FED-Zorki's certainly ... ;-)

Today I talked to someone who knows about the history of Leica cameras and he told me that it was very usual to upgrade older Leica's to newer versions. So you can find some Leica IIIf with Leica I serial numbers. This service was made at Leitz in Wetzlar/Germany to the fifties or sixties and some of the bodies was reengraved with the old numbers if the top was changed. I don't know if it helps, but maybe the same thing was made by FED in the years in question?

Best wishes - Guido

Hello everyone,
Bill, your idea that some faulty, (or maybe not faulty) early Fed-1 cameras were upgraded to Fed-1-S does seem reasonable and the most likely explaination, especially if the owners were influential in the "party". I can imagine this happening. A Fed-1-S would not have been available when the original camera was purchased, (or presented in some cases). Of course it's only natural that the owner would want the latest and best version available at the time. Guido's comments that Leica had a similar practice of replacing cameras with a re-engraved new camera would seem to support this idea despite the fact that Leica were and of course still are German. I'm sure that both Fed and Leica would have been well aware of the activities and policies of each other at that particular time, and perhaps there was some unspoken competition between the two.
So when given some thought it does seem reasonable that some Fed-1-S cameras with a Fed-1-a serial number could legitimally exist.
I'm still slightly worried that so many of these cameras are coming from just one or two sources. I'm also aware that most of the cameras that we have between us which have an earlier serial number than the model would suggest didn't come from these sources, and there is no doubt in my mind that our cameras are perfectly honest and genuine.
My camera number 4875 is an early Fed-1-b and would in any event have had a low serial number, so there wouldn't have been any point in changing it to a slightly lower number than it would have had anyway. So in my case I think that the camera is a factory replacement for Fed-1-a number 4875, which must have failed within a short time after being sold, and replaced within a few months.
I'm sure that this applies to all our cameras showing the same anomaly, they would all have been replaced at various times depending on when they failed.
So I think we have already gone a long way towards solving this mystery, but it would be nice if we could find some defintive supporting evidence. Perhaps Vlad will be successful!
Best wishes to all, Jim

Hello!
Guido is right, Leitz upgraded their Leicas up to the early sixties. And thanks to that possibility, we can see cameras that never existed: for example a I upgraded in IIIf (belongs to a friend). But it was very expensive and spare parts and skilled workers were needed. I'm not sure that Fed could have met these three conditions at those times... Or perhaps only in some very special cases.

I think the general scenery is as follows:
-replacement of non working 1a-s (warranty) by 1b-s with old engraved number,
-possibility to exchange a 1b (and perhaps after, but we cannot see it) against an S with money more. Old engraved numbers always: the Plan!.

As you see, nothing new!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Late to the party ...
but #3227 is listed in the wiki for the unusual serials and for the original serials. I guess the entry in the unusual serials is wrong since it might have screws on the box. If someone could confirm this we can delete this mistake.

And how about #2969, shouldn't it belong to the unusual serials since it has 1b-lettering and also a much later lens? #2313 with a later lens should also be in question.