Fed-1A or 1B?

Hi Vlad,

About the numbering, there is no solution of continuity, as far as I know, between the 1a-s and the early 1b-s.
And after the 1a-s and till the 1b-s of the 20000 range, there were many evolutions, but no rupture of numbering either.

So, always no certitude: only a prossibility that the factory changed the non working cameras while keeping the same numbers. But it doesn't explain the new passport that Bill showed... Perhaps there are several explanations?
Very interested by what you say about Lesopark and the outskirts of Kharkhov.

Jacques.

Hi Vlad,

It could be that your theory has some truth, however, it would then seem like we would see many more low numbered cameras with the late characteristics and ... very few late characteristic cameras with the higher numbers. Wouldn't all the late characteristic cameras have the smaller numbers? Unless after ten thousand of the newly numbered cameras they switched back to the old numbering system. Not very likely.

I think there have been three different FED factories. First, the one shown on page 90 of Princelle (but I don't know where that one was), then an expansion, with several buildings in Lesopark (#27 & #54), then after the war, the new factory which we know today, on Sumskaya. Although this does not solve the mystery of these cameras, it may be a clue.

But my real question is: What is the address of the first FED factory, shown in Princelle page 90 ? I ask this because the person that lived in Kharkov and said that there where small FED buildings in Lesopark actually went and photographed them. When I saw the photos, the buildings did not look like either the firts FED Commune building or like the Sumskaya building. It was several buildings behind a low wall with many trees around (of course as it is actually in Lesopark an actual park-like area ... not housing, etc.). As well, this man told me that there was a direct small railway from the old FED to the Lesopark building, which actually still exists, at least partially. Unfortunately, I don't have these photos anymore , but I will try to get them again.

Do any of our members live in Kharkov and knw more about this? I have an idea that since NKVD was taking over FED, and, NKVD was somewhat active in the Lesopark area, possibly this series of cameras were made for NKVD use and so were given numbers that already had been used earlier. But why, other than they would not be listed on the official FED records? Just another theory to consider.

Regards, Bill

Vlad,

Should I add a new camera into the WIKI called "FED-1b - Unusual Serial Numbers" and then we can list the serial numbers of the ones we have, and possibly characteristics ?

Also, to clarify, I think the most viable theory is that these cameras are replacements for early cameras that were broken or needed repair, for the exact same reasons that Jim outlined at the end of the first page of this thread. The serial numbers I have collected so far would also point to that scenario.

Probably when a person brought in a broken camera, a new one was taken from stock, engraved with the old number, and given back to the owner. This way there would also be less complaints about the "Russian Leica" which was good for the Soviet Industrial reputation ... very important.

Here are the numbers I have collected so far:

Serial No.

280 - DVD Tech
417 - Bill Parkinson
1032 - Aidas Pikiotas
1653 - seen on Molotok
1705 - DVD Tech Site
3504 - Collector in Kharkov (with passport photos) 1936 / Lens Tessar Type # 44236
3631 - Bill Parkinson
3909 - (FED-1S) DVD Tech Site
4586 - (FED-1S & B ?)DVD Tech Site
4875 - James McGee
5664 - DVD Tech Site


Regards, Bill

Bill, I will try to research this further, need to talk to a few people in USA and in Kharkov, I have some contacts, how far I'll get - I don't know...

Regarding the camera entry in wiki, please do add one it would be very useful! Thank you!

In regards to actually re-engraving a number on the repaired cameras - I have my personal doubts about that. What I know of Soviet history - it was all about doing something fast and moving on to other things since the demand for these cameras was so great I really don't think they went to such extremes as re-engraving the old number on repaired cameras, especially at the time when the only people who could probably fix them were the factory personnel and having being pressured into manufacturing these cameras in unreal quantities I would doubt they would be doing so.. but just my 2 cents....

Also in regards to your theory of these building on campus used by NKVD, I tend to disagree with that as well probably, since I think you take the notion of NKVD stereotypically since the I believe from what I read the only role NKVD played in the labor commune was to initiate the effort to organize the delinquents (I don't think there was anything based there at FED that related to national security related activities) and I think these other building were probably school buildings or barracks if these are in fact the surviving pre-war buildings. Remember that most of the commune was not a factory but an educational facility.. but if these were post war buildings then they may have been new additions to take care of the airplane parts manufacturing which what FED pretty much became after the war when they moved the airplane parts manufacture back to Kharkov from Berdsk (which probably includes the Sumskaya HQ building)... my sources are Oscar Fricke and official FED current web site history page. (http://www.fed.com.ua/history.php)

Vlad.

Bill, could you add my # 1126, in fact a regular 1b which should be between c. 11500 and 21000?

Vlad, as for me, I don't think that the factory reingraved repaired cameras but rather that they engraved new (non engraved) covers which were mounted on couples of new bodies/lenses already regulated in the factory. That would explain why the numbers bodies/lenses seem to mismatch.

But I only suppose...
Amitiйs. Jacques.

Vlad,

I don't mean they would re-engrave an old camera. I think if you brought in your broken FED (say FED number 417), instead of repairing the camera, they would tell you to come back in two days, or whatever, and when you came back you would be given a new FED with the old number on it. So, rather than repairing your original camera, they would just replace it. To do this they would take a camera that had not be engraved on top yet, tell the engraver the proper number that they need, he would do it, a passport with the old number but new and proper date would be put with it, and then it would be brought to the "customer service office" where it would be given to the customer when they came back.

Actually, I don't take the different duties of the NKVD stereotypically. I have read about the organization and it's many changes in organization and specific duties. The fact is that the FED commune was under control of the NKVD. In 1934 the functions of the State Police were transferred to the NKVD. Engraving "NKVD" appears on top plates of FED in early 1935. In 1935 Makarenko is transferred away from the FED Commune. In 1936 750 new members are added to the Commune, and backed up by 400 outside workers. Also in 1937 Labor Communes were abolished. In 1939 FED becomes a Kombinat (so not a commune any longer ... now a combine factory). So many changes and no doubt that the NKVD was in control of FED to a large extent. Whether things were made at FED that were for the NKVD, internal police, or national security related activities, I have not heard of anything and have no opinion, but of course would not rule it out since they were under NKVD.

As far as the buildings in Lesopark ... although I don't have the photos anymore, I will try to get them. They did show old "FED" signs on them and were obviously part of the FED operation in some way. They did not look at all like post-War buildings, and evidently they had a small train tracks running some miles from the main FED factory to the Lesopark buildings. But I don't know what they were used for. In any case, these buildings may have been abandoned at least by FED shortly after, during the war, but they did not look big like the FED Commune Building pictured on page 89 and 91 of Princelle.

So, these cameras did come from that time of large growth and many organizational and production changes. My sources are Oscar Fricke, Princelle, translation of the FED site history, and the things that this man living in Kharkov told me and showed the photos of, which is of course anecdotal.

Still one big question I have is where the original FED Communune and it's building was located in Kharkov. I cannot find that information anywhere. Was it always "Lesopark 27" ?



Regards, Bill

I have created a category in the WIKI for these cameras called "FED 1b - Unusual Serial Numbers".

Please add more info and numbers if you have it.

Regards, Bill

Bill,

First of all thanks for the entry!

very interesting! A few thing I did not know, but I've been doing my own research as well, according to some of my data, the so called "control" of NKVD over the commune when it was first formed - it was funded by taking 5% from the salaries of NKVD operatives..

Regarding Makarenko being transfered away from FED - not entirely accurate according to some of my sources. Sometime in 1935-1936 Makarenko himself had wrote a letter of resignation from FED commune stating that he wants to pursue writing literature and be a full-time writer. On September 17 1936 his request had been approved and he moves to Moscow to keep working on his education theories. He gets promoted to Senior Inspector-Consultant of Educational-Correctional Work (hope that a right translation). In 1939 he dies from a heart failure in Moscow suburb of Golitsyno. (http://www.mirror.kiev.ua/3000/3150/31564/)

Still researching the location thing.. got the maps of Kharkov and everything... more to come!

Bill, it is an interesting theory that they would keep the number and give a person a new camera, just playing devil's advocate here but wouldn't it be easier to correct paperwork rather than engrave the camera with an old number.. but I guess with new blank cameras lying around it may make some sort of sense, but why have blank cameras and engrave them on individual basis when they can go via assembly line and be engraved in correct sequence with rest of production, and then give new camera to user with a new passport... hmm... I guess we'll never know unless we find someone from FED who is still alive to know some of these things.. which I will try to do next week with couple of leads that I have...

Vlad

Vlad, thanks for correcting me about Makarenko ... a heart attack is much better than "disappeared" !

I think that when cameras are made, especially in the case of FED at this particular time when they were trying to make the quality higher ... more like a Leica, the serial numbers would have been engraved after the camera was finsihed and thought to work correctly (probably just by firing it off and feeling the action and seeing the shutter move smoothly, and speeds sounding accurate). Then once it was thought fit to be a good FED it was engraved with a number, in sequence. You would not engrave the number before it was finished because if the camera was defective it would cause problems with the sequence of numbers. However, it would not be difficult for an employee who needed to replace customers broken or defective camera, to just go to the factory and order a camera with engraving to match the camera to be replaced. That camera would just be taken from the stock of finished and accepted cameras (but not yet engraved) and engraved with the proper number, a new passport made (filled in) and delivered to the customer service dept.! In my opinion, this would be a good solution for everyone since the customer will be happy to have the new modernized FED and fixing one of the early FEDS would be time consuming since many of the parts were more 'hand-made'. I don't think that the assembly line of even the improved FED was totally automatic, the way things are now. Probably the cameras were finished and tested and the engravers had a big group to work from . not like every time one was finished, it was then immediately engraved.

You are right that probably much of the details are not ever going to be found as it is not the kind of thing that a factory worker would write a book or article about, and many things done by the Government factories don't have public records and the government records, whatever there were, are probably gone or lost (or in storage ... like that big box of broken early FEDs that must have accumulated somewhere, if this 'replacement' theory is correct).

Anyway, so far it seems to be the best explanation for these FEDs with early numbers, and since there are quite a few of them, all from the same time, there must be some reason other than just a mistake in engraving. I believe the passport for one disproves the "mistake in engraving" theory.

Regards, Bill

Hi,

Thanks for very interesting disscusion indeed! I'd like to add few more facts about A.Makarenko person. The biggest head-aches of Makarenko was his younger brother, who have emigrated to Paris just after revolution, while beeing retired officer of "Bellaja Gvardija". BTW brother was a very successful photographer in Paris, with many famous persons as a clients ...

You can imagine, that Anton Makarenko, not beeing a member of Cummunist Party and even more - with "enemy" brother in France was always under target of soviet secrete police himself. And only his close friendship with famous soviet writer Maksim Gorkij have helped him to survive ...

Beeing retired from the "Maksim Gorkij's" kids colony, he was "proposed" to lead the new-created Trudkommuna FED...

But back to camera related information ... May be not all of you know his famous phrase: "WE ARE NOT MANUFACTURING FEDS, WE ARE CREATING NEW PERSONS INDEED"! That was the reason he was reduced to the ranks and have became as the assistant of new FED director ... Very quicly A.Makarenko was transferred to Kharkov's NKVD office and was responsible for 12 similar kids colonies in Ukraine, with the exception of his beloved FED Trudkommuna ...!!! After the senseless job of 9 months (Makarenko had no mandate to change something in the proccesses), he have asked NKVD to be retired in 1936 ... Vlad's information about the last years of Makarenko's life is correct ...

Best Regards,
Aidas

Very interesting to read, thank you and keep on investigating!

Smena rules

Hello,

I try to enter the new section opened by Bill (thanks!) to complete the list and I cannot succeed in. Am I becoming invisible?
Perhaps it would be interesting too to add which serie each final camera belongs to? It would give an idea of the date of making for the Ss.

Always about the Ss, there is something puzzling. If it seems normal to exchange a broken regular Fed against another one which is new, it would be too beautiful to receive an S... Perhaps we have other complementary explanations to look for for this special problem?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello All,

Been to a friends dacha for the weekend so I'm just catching up with these latest, and very interesting posts.
Some interesting theories are emerging, though I still think the most likely scenario is that Fed preferred to replace faulty cameras with new ones rather than attempt a tricky and time consuming repair especially as at that time they would not have had anybody with the necessary skills or experience. Assembling cameras on a production line is one thing, repairing a camera is a different matter altogether, and much more difficult.
I agree with Bill's theory that Fed probably kept a stock of finished and tested cameras, but as yet without a serial number, and that these were specifically for replacement of faulty cameras that were returned to the factory.
To my mind this situation would only have lasted until workers had been trained well enough to repair cameras themselves.
Another idea is that the Fed management realised that many of the first production, ie the "Fed-1-a" up to serial number 6,000 were of inferior quality when compared to the "Fed-1-b" and decided as policy to replace any that were returned if the serial number was below 6,000.
I think that there must be something wrong if a "Fed-1-S" has a "Fed-1-a" serial number.
This anomaly seems to apply to the "Fed-1-b" only, and up to serial number 50,000, or thereabouts. It's concievable that the some of the last "Fed-1-a" cameras were still under warranty until 1937, but the "Fed-1-S" wasn't introduced until 1938 and as Jacques points out it's hard to imagine that Fed would replace a standard Fed with a "Fed-1-S"
Best wishes, Jim.

Let me tell a story, just for fun (but who knows?)

At the beginning of 1935, I buy a Fed 1a serial # 5330. Some months later, my Russian Leica stops working. A lot of chance, it's always under guarantee and I live in Lesopark 53, next to the factory (but I don't belong to the NKVD ).

So I run to the "customer service office". They check the camera and keep it with the passport for the guarantee. And they tell me that another camera will be ready within 3 days.

The clerk goes to the assembly line, takes a couple of body/lens already regulated in the factory (the sacrosanct 28,8mm!). He asks a worker to engrave a new cover -it's the time of 1b-s after 1xxxx now-with 5330. All that is put together, the clerk writes a new passport with the ancient body number, the new lens number, and the new date for my guarantee. And three days later, I can enjoy my perfectly working new camera.

But the story is not finished. The ancient cover is destroyed: the same number cannot exist twice. The old body is put in a "big box of broken early Feds". Years later, exactly in 1954, somebody opens this big box, finds the body, repairs it, puts the cover of a 1g on it (it's just the time of 1g-s) and sells the camera to a certain Jacques Morin who had been interested to discover this strange camera by the pictures of the seller (I really own such a camera).

How does that sound?

Amitiйs. Jacques.
PS: Vlad, I can open the new section, but no list appears. What happens?

Jacques, it is fixed, the font color for the serial numbers was set to white so it was not visible on white background .

I have to admit it is the most convincing explanation at this time. But I still want to persue the question of geographic location of FED factory building. I'll try to find something out.

Vlad

Thanks for the fixing, Vlad.

Jacques.

While doing research bumped into this article about the Berdsk Radiozavod and what happened to it when FED moved there and then left... a bit unrelated but still interesting given the context.

http://rw6ase.narod.ru/0/zawod/berdskiy_rz.html

Vlad.

Also found this absolutely incredible story from biography of Anton Makarenko about the creation of FED camera:

Pasting Russian text first, then Google translated one (sorry too big to translate manually but will translate any portions by request if they come through unclear)

Note: the first paragraph is an excerpt from Makarenko folk biography and the rest is clarification and pointing out the inaccuracies by professor Goetz HILLIG

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Когда Антон Семенович уже некоторое время работал в коммуне Дзержинского, у него появилась идея создать завод, и он решил посоветоваться с ребятами. „Давайте будем делать пулеметы", - предложил один мальчик. „Хорошая идея, - ответил Макаренко, и продолжил: - Но ведь у нас столько девочек. Они не смогут носить тяжелые детали". Когда все замолчали, из толпы вдруг возник фотограф и начал снимать. „А что если мы будем делать фотоаппараты?" - предложил другой мальчик - и попал в точку. Макаренко уже вел переговоры с немецкой фирмой, у которой они впоследствии выкупили права на производство фотоаппаратов „ФЭД" (Феликс Эдмундович Дзержинский. - Г.Х.) и „ФЭД-1"".

Наименование „ФЭД-1" - это ошибка. „ФД-1" являлась маркой электродрели, которую завод коммуны производил - по образцам аналогичного продукта американской фирмы „Black & Decker" - еще до начала изготовления малоформатных фотоаппаратов „ФЭД" (по аналогу немецкой камеры „Leica"). О предложении в коммуне "делать пулеметы" в макаренковедении до сих пор ничего не было известно. Это же относится к невероятному утверждению, что Макаренко "вел переговоры с немецкой фирмой". Решение о том, чтобы в "Дзержинке" производить электроинструменты и фотоаппараты, принимало ГПУ УССР, „хозяин" коммуны. Ее заводы изготовляли их без лицензии. Впрочем, это относится и ко многим другим ценным инструментам, механизмам западного производства, которые во время пятилеток были нужны стране и в СССР выпускались нелегально.

По поводу технической реконструкции "ФЭДа" Макаренко в Московском педагогическом училище № 1 летом 1938 (в докладе "Основы политического воспитания в советской школе") рассказывал следующую историю, которая - независимо от ее правдивости - подтверждает факт нелегального производства данного фотоаппарата (впрочем, в советских собраниях сочинений А.С. Макаренко она отсутствует): "К нам приехала немецкая делегация. Мне позвонили по телефону, чтобы я был осторожен, т.к. эта делегация была явна фашистская. Я собрал бригадиров и сказал им, что делегация подозрительная. На другой день подъехала машина, в ней было человек 20. Дежурный бригадир встретил и пригласил гостей и тут же шепнул мне: „Задержите их в цехах минут на сорок, потом объясню". И все показал, кроме секретных цехов, и вообще был осторожен. Через сорок минут вывел их на улицу к машине, при мне подходит коммунар и говорит немцам: „Возьмите Вашу "Лейку", спасибо". Оказывается, они приехали что-нибудь у нас узнать, но когда они вышли из машины, коммунары увидели „Лейку" последнего выпуска с какими-то приспособлениями, какого у нас не делали. За 40 минут они разобрали „Лейку", сняли с нее чертежи, сфотографировали и собрали ее: это способность ориентировки. Ведь, это было очень трудно сделать. Надо было увидеть „Лейку", не только ее взять, надо было собрать специалистов-сборщиков и ничего не испортить - это нужно было так, что[бы] ничего не было заметно, потому что это дипломатическое дело. И это была не боязнь, а представление о чести своего коллектива".

---

When Anton Semenovich some time already served in the commune of Dzerzhinsky, he had the idea to establish a factory, and he decided to consult with children. "Let us make machine guns," - suggested a boy. "Good idea - responded Makarenko, and continued: - But we have so many girls. They will not be able to carry heavy parts." When all is silent, suddenly emerged from the crowd photographer and began shooting. "What if we will make cameras?" - Suggested another boy - and got a point. Makarenko already negotiated with the German firm, which they subsequently bought the rights to manufacture cameras "FED" (Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky. - G.H. ) And FED-1 "."


The name "FED-1" - this is a mistake. "FD-1" was a brand electric that the factory was producing commune - a similar product designs on the American firm "Black & Decker" - even before the start of construction pocket cameras "FED" (along the lines of German Chambers "Leica"). On the proposal in the commune of "machine guns" in official biography of Makarenko so far nothing has been known. The same applies to the incredible assertion that Makarenko "negotiated with the German firm." Decision that the "Dzerzhinke" produce electric devices and cameras, was GPU USSR's, "owner" of communes. Its factories produced them without a license. Incidentally, this applies to many other valuable tools, instruments of western production, which at the time were needed pyatiletok country and the USSR issued illegally.

On the technical reconstruction "FEDa" Makarenko of the Moscow Pedagogical School № 1 in summer 1938 (in the report "Principles of political education in the Soviet school") told the following story, which - regardless of its truthfulness - confirms the fact of illegal production of this camera (though in Soviet Collected Works AS Makarenko, it does not exist): "We arrived German delegation. I call on the phone, so I was cautious, because this delegation was clearly fascist. brigadier and I have told them that the delegation suspicious. At another day the machine arrived, there were 20 people. Dezhurny foreman met and invited guests and then whispered to me: "excellence in their shops at the forty-minutes, then explain." And all showed except secret shops, and in general was cautious. After forty minutes brought them into the street to the car, with me Communards and the Germans said: "Take your Leica, thank you". It turns out they come up with something we know, but when they came out of the car, the Communards saw the latest model of Leica with some attachment devices, which we have not been making. For 40 minutes Communards reviewed the "Leica", had left with their drawings, photographed and assembled her exactly the way it was before. After all, it was very difficult to do. We have to be seen "Leica", not only to take it, it was necessary for specialists and camera makers not to spoil anything - it had to be so, that nothing would be noticeable, because it's a diplomatic matter. And it was not fear, but of the honour of his team.

---

Source: http://zt1.narod.ru/vydumki.htm

Vlad

Really thanks, Vlad!
I am not sure to understand all and well. But the cooperation between Germany and USSR was a fact after WW1 and reinforced by the treaty of Rapallo (1922).
Sure that if we have a close look at the dates, the Fed 1 probably couldn't have been built so fast without an external aid, or at least a cooperation...
- april 1932: the first Leica II,
- june 1932: decision to build a Leica type camera,
- october 26th 1932: the first copies of the Leica I (A),
- 1933: a new factory is built, tools and machine tools are created, 30 models of preserie are produced,
- january 1934: the production of the Fed 1a begins.

I'm not familiar with industry, but it looks incredible if we think of the necessary precision of tools, for example. Even if the quality of the Fed 1a was not the one of Leicas: we have just seen that in that thread! Exactly in the same years, Zeiss will have big problems with its Ia which will be fixed only four years after with the II...

Stephan Rothery's article says all that much better than me:
http://sovietcamera.110mb.com/fed1/

Amitiйs. Jacques.