TSVVS again!

Indeed. I just find the fact that so many cameras are know but NONE have any papers or boxes highly suspicious..

Thank you Detlev, the CIA document is most helpful!

Vlad.

Hi Vlad,

Maybe possible that there were no boxes made for this small edition of military cameras meant for officers of the USSR Topographical Service (or to whom and wherever they were distributed). Boxes are usually for civilian cameras as are manuals. Maybe there was no "passports" needed as they were produced in Germany but meant for Soviet military use.

They don't appear to be fakes and it would be prohibitive for anyone making fakes to go to such trouble and expense over the high quality manufacture and the cost of obtaining so many of the Zeiss lenses. And if not authentic, why go to the trouble of making two versions of the engraving?

The marking on the theodolite is different than the camera because of the "K". But the serial number uses the same designation "No." as the TSVVS where the earlier theodolites by Hildebrand use the "Nr." designation for the serial number.

I have always thought that the camera was made in East Germany but given to officers in the Soviet Union because of the manufacturing details.

Regards, Bill

quote:

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Originally posted by nightphoto


Maybe possible that there were no boxes made for this small edition of military cameras meant for officers of the USSR Topographical Service (or to whom and wherever they were distributed). Boxes are usually for civilian cameras as are manuals. Maybe there was no "passports" needed as they were produced in Germany but meant for Soviet military use.

---

Here is presented TSVVS with box(but i'm not sure that box is original):

http://yelphimoff.narod.ru/bronshtein/RusCamera.htm

Unfortunatelly, can't find original site of Alexander Bronstein...




http://xalmaz.narod.ru

Thank you xalmaz, I am in contact with him, will ask for more information.

A bit more information, I've been corresponding with a Russian military topographer, and obtained some extra information I am posting here some interesting snippets of our correspondence:

"Найти документацию по ним, как мне кажется - не возможно. Мастерские были военные - все либо сожгли, либо в недоступных архивах. "
"I think it is impossible to find documentation for them [cameras], workshops were military, they either burned everything or it's in the inaccessible [to public] archives"

"Камера использовалась при фотографировании во время полевых работ в 1950-ые годы. Работы выполнялись на Дальнем Востоке.
Было ли это поощрением или камера выдавалась по службе - не могу знать, но никаких дарственных гравировок и надписей нет.
Существуют отдельные виды работ, при выполнении которых необходимо делать фотографии местности. Точно к таким видам работ относится демаркация государственной границы - пограничные столбы и характерные ориентиры фотографировались. Могу предположить, что для таких целей в полевые отряды выдавались такие камеры.
То что то камеры использовались исключительно в наградных целях - это вряд ли, это скорее исключения из правил.

Приведу цитату: "Про фотоаппараты у геодезистов вспомнила одну мелкую деталь. Много лет отец снимал домашние фото аппаратом, который потом передал мне, оставшимся у него не знаю с каких времен. Это был стандартный для тех времен ФЭД (не зеркалка), но на самой камере, там, где пишут название, было написано "ВТС" и больше ничего. Могу предположить, что линейка аппаратов делалась на том же заводе по заказу службы. Отец обращал мое внимание на то, что объектив был - нестандартный для общедоступных ФЭДов, возможно даже цейсовский, но врать не буду, точно не помню. Поставил ли этот объектив отец или такой была комплектация сейчас уже не узнать"."

"The camera was used for photography during field work in the 1950s. The work was carried out in the Far East.
Whether it was a meritorious award or the camera was given out for service - I can’t know, but there are no gift engravings and inscriptions.
There are certain types of work, during which it is necessary to take photographs of the area. The demarcation of the state border refers precisely to such types of work - border posts and characteristic landmarks were photographed. I can assume that for such purposes such cameras were issued to field detachments.
The fact that the cameras were used exclusively for award purposes is unlikely, it is rather an exception to the rule.

I’ll quote: “One small detail I remembered about cameras from surveyors. For many years, my father took home photos with the apparatus, which he later handed over to me, I don’t know from what time. It was a standard FED (not a SLR) for those times, but “BTC” was written on the camera where the name was written and nothing else. I can assume that the line of devices was made at the same factory by order of the service. My father drew my attention to the fact that the lens was non-standard for regular FEDs, maybe even Zeiss, but I won’t lie, exactly I don’t remember. Did father put this lens himself or was it such a bundle?"



Best regards,
Vlad

Alexander Bronstein has kindly provided me with more detailed photos of that camera box. It is quite plain...

Hi Vlad,

The plaque on the bottom of the case is interesting.

Detlev

The plaque is interesting. Can somebody translate what is written? I see 1957 as an anniversary date (?): probably late if it's the case...
The cable release with its special case inside the box is interesting too. A pity we don't know more about it.

Jacques.

Here's a better photo.

It says:
"To Colonel Maximov L.K. for many years of excellence in service in detachment of VTS SA (Military Topography Service of Soviet Army) from head of VTS, December 9 1957".

Cheers,
Vlad

Thanks, Vlad.
The Military Topography Service sounds right, of course.
But what about the date? This VTS-VS is "officially" a 1950 camera. The last batches of Jena-Contaxes were delivered well inside the fifties, especially the 305xx series. But is a comparison possible?

Jacques.

Jacques, you're saying that these Zeiss lenses on all these cameras are MUCH later than the bodies?? That really does not align the timelines here....

Vlad,
Most of the serial numbers for the lenses are within the range of those made by Carl Zeiss Jenna during the the 1949-1950 production dates of the TSVVS. Those that are not may just have been found by collectors or sellers without a lens and so the added a lens without regard to serial number, or else the original owner got lenses mixed up with another earlier or later lens.
Maybe it is possible that the cameras were made as retirement gifts for Topographical Service officers and so they were being distributed as late as 1957? The dedication plaque looks quite authentic to me and even has small silver hallmarks on it. It lends more credence to the cameras authenticity. The idea that they were retirement gifts also is a good explanation why they are usually found in good condition with little wear since they were not used as field cameras in the military.

Regards, Bill

No, Vlad. I was just wondering if some VTS-VS could have been mounted after the years 49-50, considering the date of donation. It was just an idea, and Bill's explanation is more satisfying.

About the Sonnars 2/5cm made in 47-49, so the s/n 3000000-3100000 (around 15000 by the Thiele), we find them on VTS-VS of course (1949-50), on the first series of Contax IIa (49-51), on Jena Contaxes (47-56) and on some rare Leica copies in LTM version. Strange dispersion concerning the dates...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

About TSVVS case:
My first impression is that the case is contemporary within 1957 years.

I had seen some 60 years ago. But this one reminds Zorki cases once Ukranian FED and KIEV had a thicker paper and (generally) grey interior.So, probably not original from 1949/1950.
Regards.

LP

Picked up a "Leica Copies" book by HPR this weekend at Chicago Camera Show, interesting information regarding TSVVS in there, a mention of 1970s sale of 5-10 of these cameras in South Germany! This is the first time I see this camera mentioned before 1990s.

Also this mention of this frankencamera/cutlet/meatball:

Concerning the frankenFed, it's easy to answer the question.
The adaptation was made to put a Sonnar in Contax mount on the Fed 1b, much better than the original Industar 10... In case the owner had such a lens!...

Here is a "modern" changing, still for sale on ebay. Less interesting than the precedent conversion, as we have all the possible Jups in M39 mount now...


Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Jacques, the bottom seems to be from TSVVS on the photo from the book, and top from FED. It's curious how all mechanisms fit together from both cameras...

Very well observed by Vlad, is that "the altered FED" is a real TSVVS with rangefinder, viewfinder ant top from FED
And the FrankenFED from Jacques is really a Zorki with an original machined Contax mount!
Regards
LP

Ah, yes! Thanks, Vlad and Luis.
So, this frankenFed cannot have been made before 1949... Really a strange camera, as the ZK lenses in m39 mount were available.
Or a test camera before the TSVVS production?
Anyway, very interesting.

Jacques.