Kiev III 1949 and Contax III M series.

Hello,

As we know, early Kievs II and III come from Dresden parts and from machine tools made at Jena and sent to Kiev in 1947.
The early Kiev II are rare, but their number (some tens known in 1947 and 1948) allows to make some comparisons with the wartime Contaxes.

It is more difficult for early Kievs III which are even rarer: some cameras only known in 1947-1948, perhaps some tens in 1949.

I own a Contax M series (made in 1942 or 1943) and a 1949 Kiev III. And together we could try to do something which looks like what we have already done in the thread "Kiev II forerunners"...



No real difference concerning the general "look". The chrome is poor and rough on the Contax, exactly like on my Contax II O series. Wartime productions... The weight is the same: 745 g. without the lens. About the lenses, the Sonnar on the Contax is not original (certainly too late), and the ZK Zorki is a correct rigid one.

Soon detailed pictures of my two ones.
If you have Kiev III of the late forties...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

I owned (I don't know why I sold it away - there was Marine-Sonnar engraved with MF and an additional number on it...) an Contax II mit O serial number too. First thing that I saw was the very rough chrome and engraving. Looks a bit like the later Kievs :-)

What is the serial number of your rigid ZK? It looks like 4903695. One of my Kiev II from 1949 has a rigid ZK with serial 4903627. So it seems to be very close.

By the way... where the hell do you find a 1949 KIEV III in that stunning condition? :-)

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Jacques,

my Kiev-III from 1948 you have already seen in thread "Just arrived...", and I have one more Kiev-II from 1949 (s/n 495575) with a collapsible Zorki ZK (s/n 4900415). I cannot compare them with Contax (I have no one ), but I can post here any photos of my cameras, let me know which .

Regards, Alexander

Ulrich and Alexander,

Thanks for your answers!
I found this 1949 Kiev III on eBay, at a bargain price. I did not hesitate: I jumped on it...
I confirm the serial number of the lens, Ulrich: 4903695. What is the serial number of the Kiev II on which your '3627 is mounted?

Alexander: it would be great you post detailed pictures of your 1948 Kiev III. And it is the first time I see a 1948 Kiev III "A" numbered! This afternoon (French hour), I will post some pictures of the top plates, including lightmeter.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

First, a general view of the tops of the two cameras.
Two light differences:
- the meter scale is not exactly the same,
- there is a reinforced stamped spot round the counter on the Contax.
The other interesting details are the same: arrow with feather, moulding of the lightmeter window, buttons, groove on the distance wheel...

Then two others pictures of the "tower" like button, which includes the rewinding, the sensibility of the film and the regulation of the couple speed/diaphragm. So, three in one!





The Contax is the first (= higher).
Absolutely no difference.
It is interesting to know that this sensibility (9-33 10° DIN) was used only from the last M series Contax, so 1942. So, the lightmeter of the 1949 Kiev certainly comes from Dresden parts. Anyway, it was not made at Kiev!
As for the "3" with flat top, it comes from Dresden too. My 1958 KuпB III has round 3s on that button.

Now, a view of the baseplates.



The disconnecting button has a Jena look (concentric circles) on the Kiev. As for the Contax, the button is a normal Dresden one, but the triangular shoe is missing, just like on my Contax II O series. It seems that Zeiss had some problems with this moulded part... It is known that they put any of the older triangular remaining parts they have, includind those coming from Contax I...

No surprise for the "3"s.
The Contax has flat top 3s (Dresden parts) on three spots:
- sensibility of film (tower like button),
- counter of views,
- distance lens plate.
Round top 3s for the Kiev on the counter and distance lens plate (pictures below).

Very last thing: the stamped spot round the counter (on the Contax 3).




A very interesting question, as this reinforcement exists on Contax III only. Not on Contax II, Jena Contaxes, Kievs...
That means that the top plate of this 1949 Kiev III cannot have been made at Dresden.

So, the meter and the tower like button only seem coming from Dresden. All the rest of the camera can have been made at Jena, or perhaps at Kiev. Impossible to be more precise, as the two "pure" Jena details (black circle under selftimer, number of circles on the square part of the shoe) are absent here. And we don't have any Jena Contax III to compare...

But it is known that an electrician engineer, specialised in Contax III, was left at Jena well after the machine tools were sent to Kiev. It would explain why it is more or less admitted that Kiev III were really made at Kiev only from 1952.

Now, I hope that Alexander will go on the thread with pictures of his 1948 Kiev III. Perhaps they will solve some questions?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Well Jacques,

thank you for the photos and your researches! I have very attentively examined my Kiev-III 1948 and I can only confirm all you have wrote EXCEPT the round top "3" on the tower button. I have it really "round"!
I have only two possible explanation of this:
1) it could be replaced later by repair. It seems for me to be more plausible.
2) it could be already the new "Kiev-design".

I will open the "tower" and will try to check, what it really was.

Some photos come soon as well...

Regards, Alexander

By the way,
a very interesting article "KIEV: The Unknown from the East" was published in a magazine "Photo Deal" II/2011. It has a lot of photos and compares the Kiev and Contax cameras. I can scan it and post here, let me know.

P.S. It is German only, sorry.


Regards, Alexander

Alexander,

that would be nice if you can post the article here.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Let me know when interesting articles will be in French...

To be more serious, I think like you that your 1948 Kiev III could have been repaired, Alexander.

The "tower" shows a DIN meter. So, a German production. And the scale could be a Kiev of the fifties: it looks like my 1958 Kiev IIIa (always working fine!) but neither my Contax M, nor my Kiev 1949.

But there can be other explanations too... Eager to see your pictures.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

You can find the article here: www.kneller.info/Kiev-Die_Unbekannte_aus_dem_Osten.pdf

Regards, Alexander

Well,
I have done some photos of my Kiev-III 1948 and tried to show on them the same parts as on the photos of Jacques.
The first four pictures are the same without any differences:









But the last one made me worried. You see on it "round" 33 a little bit shifted to the right:



... and I opened the "tower". For the comparison I opened the "tower" on my Kiev-III 1952 too:


Kiev-III 1948 - the stopper is thick


Kiev-III 1952 - the stopper is thin

As you see on pictures, the stopper on Kiev-III 1948 is thicker and the ring is a little curved.
What is it? A home made part or something similar... The ring with stopper on Kiev-1952 seems to be made more professional.


Regards, Alexander

Alexander,

at first, thank you for scanning the article. I know Fred Knцferl from some E-Mails. The article is interesting but does not tell me new things that I knew before. But it is nice to read.

When I take a look at the pictures of your KIEV I can see that there are some parts that maybe are from later Kievs. The film counter hat no flat "3", the focus wheel has no groove in it, the stand foot looks as it is from a later Kiev (compare it to this picture, the left one is from my Kiev of 1950, the right one from 1953. The one from 1950 is deeper inside.

.

About the Tower scale stopper I don't know if it must be smaller or wider. Is the selftimer lever of smaller or wider type? See



this is the smaller type as seen on my 1950 and both of my 1949 Kievs. And what about the arrow of the selftimer?



Left one is the earlier type, it has smaller feathers.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Alexander,

another question. Have you removed the front mask? I think, if your KIEV is a real one from 1948 there should be a stamped out Contax engraving seen on the inside.

And for all that are interested in earlier articles of the Contax to Kiev history here are some articles (only in german, sorry). They are ten years old, so I don't know if there are any newer facts.

http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_1.pdf
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_2.pdf
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_3.pdf
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_4.pdf
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_5.pdf
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_6.pdf
http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_7.pdf

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

hi Ulrich

A powerful document, realy intresting.


robtyss
or
the1xt
the frist cross trail

Ha! All that is most interesting!

In fact, this Kiev III is much more a Jena/Kiev than a Dresden one if we consider:
- the feather of the tower,
- the view counter, without the reinforcement of the Dresden Contax III,
- the "3"s, everywhere with a round top,
- the release button for rewinding...

And as for the lack of groove on the focus wheel, some Kiev 1947 lack it too...

For me, the most interesting is the letter A, not a square A, in fact (n'est-ce-pas, Michel! ) I never saw such a letter before the '50s...

So, if we guessed that this camera was made from Jena parts?

Let me try a tale to see if that works...
We are in 1948. Mr A. is told that Arsenal is beginning to make a russified Contax III. He decides to buy one. At the factory, an engineer tells him that this camera is made in very small numbers with rare parts coming principally from Jena, including the lightmeter. He buys one.

All is perfect several years. Then, in the early '50s, the cell stops working. Mr A, always in love with his Kiev, sends it to Arsenal. There, of course, they don't have original Jena parts any more, so they put an "A" cell. No problem for the tower, as the sensibility is the same. Of course, they engrave an A to show the repair.

Fifty years later, Alexander receives this very camera, and he posts on USSRphoto.

Does that sound possible?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Thank you for the story, Jacques !

It sounds really funny, but possible.
It seems to me, that I really need to disassemle my Kiev to check, WHAT IT IS or, may be, WHAT IT WAS


Regards, Alexander

Ulrich,

thank you very much for the document! It is really interesting, I have not seen it before.

Regards, Alexander