Fed NKVD with odd serial numbers

Hello,

Perhaps something new about this thread. A CCCP 1d s/n 67588 should soon be here. Of course, I will compare it closely to the other CCCP 1d s/n 67610, a camera which we already spoke of here.

I am very surprised to see two odd numbered Feds with so close serial numbers. That could suggest a small series for administration or else, which was Bill's supposition...

Amitiйs.

So, the s/n 67588 is here.
In all features, it is the same as the s/n 67610: same CCCP engraving, same 5mm pin lock for the base plate, etc. More important, same steel magnetic shutter case and press film (brass for the 1c-s and 1d- up to 105/110000).

As for the internal date of checking, things are clear too. 1/XII for the 67588 and 2/XII for the 67610. These two cameras were made at the same time, and their serial number cannot be an error.

Just the same about the lenses. Lenses are often mixed and cannot be a proof in themselves. But here, we are lucky. The Industar 10 # 113915/83/0 is on the body # 67588 and the 113869/20/0 was on the 67610. That suggests that the lenses are original and can be used as a base to determine the real range of the bodies.

We usually find lenses of this range on 1d-s around # 110000/115000. For example, the 1d # 111169 has the lens 111956, by my data. And this camera has a passport dated 14 XI 1939. To compare with the dates of checking of the two odd cameras (1/XII and 2/XII)...

So I have no real doubt: these two cameras were mounted in november/december 1939. Probably a small series was made: it would be interesting to examine more deeply that question. But I can tell that the 66674, 67723, 67724 are ordinary Fed 1c: they belong to my collection.

Certainly, a series of serial numbers was reserved in july 1938, date of making of the regular 1c in the 67000 range. But why and for whom?...

Photos to come.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Some photos.

The # 67588 and 67610 side by side:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25112023_IMG_1423.JPG

The serial numbers of the two lenses:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25112023_IMG_1431.JPG

A comparison beween the # 66674 (regular 1c) and the # 67588:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25112023_IMG_1438.JPG

The # 67588 is above:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25112023_IMG_1439.JPG

The 67588 is on the right

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25112023_IMG_1440.JPG

And a photo of the 5 NKVD in the 66/67xxx range:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25112023_IMG_1437.JPG

All questions and comments are welcome!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

I just love the last picture with the 5 FEDs :-)

I took a look in my serial numbers and have seen that I don't have a FED with 66xxx or 67xxx.
So between the 66xxx and the 67xxx the bottom lock gets bigger.

To the lens serial numbers: I always thought that the camera and lens serial numbers are equal within a range. But now your 66 and 67 have 113 xxx lenses. That's a bit strange to me. My FED with 51xxx has a lens with 57xxx and the one with 71xxx has a lens with 72xxx. A camera with 112xxx has a lens with 113xxx.
So what do you think why yours have a 113xxx serial number?

Ulrich


http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Ulrich!

Many thanks for your answer!

I completely agree with you: the serial number of a lens is originally close to the number of the body. For example, the lens # 111956 was mounted on the body # 111169, with 14 XI 1939 as a date of passport (my data).

That means that when a lens is original, it can be used to date a body.

If the # 67588 and 67610 were 1c-s, as they should, the lenses would be in the 67/70000 range. But their lenses are in the 113xxx range, and both very close. So, very probably, they are original. If we had to date them, we could say end nov. 1939/beginning dec.1939 (cf the passport of the 111956, above). So, the two "odd" cameras should have been mounted and equipped with their lenses at that same period.

All that is coherent with the scratched dates inside the odd cameras: 1/XII and 2/XII which are the dates of checking the shutters.

Of course, that is not an absolute proof. What do you think? It would be fine to find other 1d-s in the 67xxx range!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

About the pin of the lock.

By my data, the 3mm pin was used up to the # 81543 (3mm pin) / 83515 (5mm pin) in the 1c range. 5mm pin after up to the end of the Fed 1.

The # 67588 (and 67610) has a 5mm pin (photo above) because it is in fact a 1d. My other 66/67xxx 1c-s have 3mm pins.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

I have a FED with serial 231581 for service here now. On the shutter is 10-VI-50 scrachted in.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Thanks, Ulrich.
That seems correct: I have 14/VII inside for my s/n 232140 and 25/8 for the s/n 236680 (with a selftimer).

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Another odd numbered Fed here: the s/n 1520 with a "lizard" vulcanite.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1262024_IMG_1677.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1262024_IMG_1678.JPG

This camera has all the features of an "ordinary" Fed 1b with a lizard vulcanite, s/n from c. 125xx to 15xxx. Mainly the cover with
- a depression under the speed button,
- a "narrow" engraving,
- the left shape of the cover which is (more or less) in straight line.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/1262024_IMG_1686.JPG

By comparison, the s/n 4580, which is too an odd numbered 1b (shown above), also with a lizard vulcanite, belongs to the 25/26xxx 1b by its cover:
- without depression under the speed button,
- with a larger engraving,
- with a curved left shape.

All the rest is identical.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

nice find. The "lizard" vulcanite leathering is already quite rare, but to find one with a wrongly engraved serial number, congratulations :-)

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Thanks, Ulrich!

I am really happy to own ten of these cameras. And the subject is far from being closed. But I have tried to summarize a bit that topic
It seems that these odd numbers could be due to:

- a warranty exchange. The camera doesn't work and the factory prefers the exchange rather than the repair. In that case, the original serial number is kept (Leitz did the same for the Leicas). The Fed s/n 1520 can belong to that category: the original 1a did not work and was exchanged against a 1b, some months later. Not too astonishing for an early 1a...

- an exchange with improvement, from an ordinary NKVD towards an S. The original number is kept once more (idem for the Leicas). For example, the 1b s/n 25726 which became a 1d S.

- an error of engraving. For example, the s/n 1126. A missing cipher (a "2" here) and the serial number is 1126 and not 21126, as it should be, by all its features, even the most specific ones.

- another (exciting!) possibility: a small series of numbers reserved by the factory (for the police, the army...) and made and delivered later. That could be the case of the s/n 67588 and 67610: reserved in june 1938 (serial number) and made in december 1939 (scratched date inside and lenses). For the moment, I have not found any other serial numbers between these two ones... A pity!

In fact, I am struck by the homogeneity of these cameras: they were not mounted from spare parts and each of them can be dated by its features...

If you own or know such cameras, don't hesitate to post, please. And the discussion remains open, of course.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

interesting possibilities.
I also own one with an odd number, camera has serial number 2850 and the lens hat 117445. Compared to the photos on Ilyas (Aidas') site it looks like a PE0217, but looking closer at it it seems to be a "Frankenstein", the body is from a later (in the 110.000 range) but the top is rounded. Nevertheless an interesting camera.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

It's possibly a Frankenstein camera, Ulrich.
But a cover of 1b with 2850 as serial number, that does not exist "officially"...
Very interesting camera!

Jacques.

Hi,
after seeing the various engraving stencils for the FED-1 camera made in the early 90's, I am no longer surprised by anything.
Nevertheless I think it was fault engraving, we can see this on FED-1 camera rather often.

Regards, Alexander