Fed NKVD with odd serial numbers

Hello,

I have received yesterday a strange Fed S, s/n 25726. Its features are from the NKVD 1d type, but the number comes from the 1b series. It puts once more a question which has not been solved: why these serial numbers? I own several of these strange NKVD-s (I am not alone!) and perhaps we could discuss together about mine and yours...

First some photos of this Fed S s/n 25726: the cover and the front.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1172018_IMG_0110.JPG



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1172018_IMG_0114.JPG

Nothing extraordinary, except the s/n. The vulcanite is typical of the early 1d-s (I would say up to c.110000).

But this camera is surprising.
The frame counter is magnetic. It's probably the first time I see that on a Fed. And the position of the pins is correct, so, this disc doesn't belong to other well known cameras, such as Leicas or Zorkis.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1172018_IMG_0113.JPG

Something else. The bottom cover contains a special warning plaque like some Leicas, but in Russian and with the "CCCP" mark. A sort of 1d identity card... I had never seen that before.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1172018_IMG_0119.JPG

Last picture concerning this camera: the back part of the shutter box, foot removed.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1172018_IMG_0117.JPG

Of course, interesting. Impossible to say where the grey colour comes from.
The camera was delivered with a Fed 3,5/50mm lens, not original for a Fed S.

In our previous threads concerning these cameras, we had listed the different possibilities:
- s/n kept when warranty (like Leicas),
- special s/n reserved for administration (police, army, etc),
- error when engraving: 1st cipher missing (or other),
- any possible fakes.

What do you think about this one?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Jacques,

The little plaque inside the bottom cover is quite surprising, I've never seen one as well! How interesting! I am still of the opinion that the early serial numbers of later cameras are a result of a factory warranty repair where number was moved to another plate so the passport stays the same. Very nice and curious addition to your collection! Congratulations!

Best regards,
Vlad

Thanks, Vlad.
The factory warrantee repair can be an explanation for some of these cameras we already know. But not for this specific one, I think.

This s/n 25726 belongs to the early 1d: CCCP engraving, non magnetic shutter cage (cages become magnetic from c. 110/115xxx), vulcanite, etc. So, a theorical serial number between 95xxx/115xxx. These cameras were made in the mid of 1939; the original 25726 1b in the end of 1936 (Princelle). It's too long for a simple warrantee.

I even think that the misengraving (omission of the first cipher, a "1") is probably not the explanation. 125726 would be too late for a 1d with a brass shutter cage. And more: the magnetic counter frame and the special warning plaque are completely unusual.

So, a special series? Or rather bodies, taken from the running production, to be re-numbered before delivery? But to whom? Only a supposition...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

http://ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=98&ParentID=1&ContentID=1035&Item=FED+1b+%2D+Unusual+Serial+Numbers

Here is the listing of our wiki:

220 - AVITO 2012 /att. 10/I/1937/ lens #35071
280 - DVD Tech
377 - A.Nikitin
417 - Bill Parkinson
420 - S.Pseunok
568 - internet
852 - A.Nikitin
1032 - Aidas Pikiotas
1126 - Jacques M. (1b between c. 11500-21000)
1151 - Molotok
1653 - seen on Molotok
1705 - DVD Tech
2013 - PYC (Fed-S 1c)
2532 - photohistory
2969 - Halsey, Nikitin (Lens #34959) /zinc/
3504 - Collector in Kharkov (passport 20/VIII/1936 see photo / Lens #44236)
3631 - Bill Parkinson, Jacques M.
3909 - DVD Tech (FED-S 1c)
4573 - ebay. Narrow engraving.
4580 - Jacques M. (1b brown vulcanite, large engraving)
4586 - DVD Tech (FED-S & B ? 1d)
4875 - James McGee
5298 - Alexander K. (Lens #5977)
5378 - A.Nikitin ( Fed S)
5664 - DVD Tech
5957 - web (lens 1\2 #6823)
25726 - Jacques M. (Fed S 1d)
25949 - DVD Tech (Fed-S 1c)
32580 - Mike Haley (napchop)
27839 - Avto Metreveli

Two groups in this list, by the s/n: cameras which belong to the 1a series (202 to 5957) and four with a 1b serial number. The idea that many 1a-s were not correctly working, so repaired or changed under warrantee, is clear. But the wiki does not give enough information about the conversion of these cameras. If the owners could share... I will do my best with my other three cameras.

Jacques.

Jacques, it still can be a warranty replacement, the original body was beyond repair and they just engraved old serial number from passport and gave it to the customer

Between the s/n 25726 (original camera) and a s/n between 95/110000 (replacement camera), there are 2 years and a half. It's probably too long for a warranty period, I think?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

I am not sure how long warranty was on a FED, it's possible it may have been 3 years. Does anyone know?

quote:

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Originally posted by Vlad

I am not sure how long warranty was on a FED, it's possible it may have been 3 years. Does anyone know?

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Do you expect it is still valid ?

Haha, you never know! Maybe if you insist they can replace a camera with an IL-72 fuel pump or whatever they manufacture right now

Ha, ha!
A word more: I just see the s/n of the Industar 10: 107717.
The camera was bought by a French in the 1940s and stayed in the same family till now. The actual seller does not remember having seen a 2/50 Fed lens.
If this Industar is original, which is not impossible, that would confirm the s/n between 100xxx/110xxx for the body.

But the question remains: warranty engraving or special order?

as these cameras were expensive, they may have been unsold for a year or two. if this one was sold a year or two later than its date of production, it would have been under warranty by the time of the newer body. so it could well be a warranty repair engraving.

www.a7camera.com www.120folder.com www.instantphoto.eu

quote:

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Originally posted by xya

as these cameras were expensive, they may have been unsold for a year or two. if this one was sold a year or two later than its date of production, it would have been under warranty by the time of the newer body. so it could well be a warranty repair engraving.

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Certainly you can be right: I thought to something like that. Vlad, Alfa, would it be coherent?

I really doubt this is proper scenario.

The question is: Where the camera was bought ?

If the camera was bought in France so it would be possible the camera stayed on a shelf in a shop for long time. But I really doubt FEDs NKVD were sold officialy in France before WWII. Before WWII Poland was capitalistic country and there was no import of FEDs. You could buy only Leica. I assume it was not official import of FEDs to France too.

If the camera was bought in USSR it would not stay long time on a shelf in a shop. In capitalistic countries there are overproduction. There are a lot of goods on shelfs in shops and these things can stay there for a long time. In communistic countries we had underproduction. Very often shelfs in shops were empty. Consumers had to wait until goods are produced. Good example is a car. My father wanted to buy a car Fiat 125p. So he had to pay 100% of amount 5 years earlier and than wait this 5 years until a car was produced. So I really doubt this FED was waiting in a shop to be bought in USSR.
It was not matter the cheepest car costed 35 medium monthly salaries. There was always queue and you had to wait a few years for the car.

My idea is completely other but we van only guess of course.

I think the camera was done "after knowing" i.e. by special request. This was very popular way in communistic countries. I will give you an example:
I want to buy a camera but I cannot buy it officially in a shop because it was not there. But my brother knows a guy who works in a factory. So I ask my brother to ask his friend about a camera. The factory worker tells my brother he will prepare special camera for my brother.

This was a very popular way of getting some thing that you could not buy in a shop. In capitalistic countries it is treated as theft. In communistic countries it was absolutely acceptable because this arise from living in completely other reality.

So the camera was done by a worker from parts they had those time period in the factory. There was no 2/50 so 3.5/50 lens was used.

Thanks, Alfa.
The camera was bought in the years 1940s, but the actual seller doesn't know where. Certainly not in France, anyway. About import, I just remember having seen used Feds for sale in Paris in 1954 (I was just 10). Probably NKVDs, as I could not decipher all these words in cyrillics...

About your guess, I have some doubts. A skilled worker would have had access to all the necessary parts, including the special ones for Fed S, and would have engraved a special s/n with the right tools? Why a special number? But, as you say, we are here to suppose.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

On the other hand, your guess would explain these odd parts we find in this Fed: the plaque inside the back cover (a prototype?); the magnetic frame counter (trial of the factory), etc.

Second camera: the s/n 1126.
A normal 1b, except the number.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372018_IMG_0128.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372018_IMG_0130.JPG

The vulcanite takes place after the brown patterned one; narrow inscription, fine milling for the buttons, no hole on the back.

Base plate removed:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372018_IMG_0135.JPG

The center screw is present. There is "25078" written with a pencil on the cage (perhaps the s/n of the original 3,5/50 Fed lens? I bought the camera with the 4,5/28).

All in all, a classical 1b which should have a s/n between 15xxx/21xxx, if we add the shape of the left side of the cover (much more curved after) and other details. This camera seems an excellent candidate for the 1st cipher missing: "21126" would be normal for this body.

Any comments are welcome! Thanks!

Jacques.
(3 other of these Feds to come)

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

About your guess, I have some doubts.

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Jacques, let me answer your doubts.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

A skilled worker would have had access to all the necessary parts, including the special ones for Fed S

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A skilled worker would have had access to all parts, which were available in the factory. In communism factories produced goods from this what they had currently on stock. Some materials were rationed (limited) even in factories. Especially for civilian production. There were other rules related to military production because it was prio 1. So they had all necessary materials.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

and would have engraved a special s/n with the right tools? Why a special number?

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Here I have an explanation too. He in had to go out of the factory with this camera in one piece or part by part. Factories had guards. They controlled everybody who go out of the factory area. So he wanted to go out with the plate with s/n which pretended part for old FED not for one from current production.

Of course we can only guess what happened with the FED in the factory.

But I remember communistic reality in factories. When I was a student a was working in car factory as a part of my study. I remember the guard in front of factory gate and ways people were trying to put parts out of the factory. They were doing it because they were not able to buy car parts in a shop. I can write much more about this if you want.