Fed NKVD with odd serial numbers

I agree with Vlad that this camera of Jacques is an interesting discovery because of the instructional plate.
The instructional plate looks authentic to me, and the way it is attached indicates that it was added to a factory base-plate. Very possibly a special-order for a small number of cameras, since we have not seen it before.

It is hard for me to believe that this camera was a replacement for a damaged camera and that the instructional plate was added for no reason!

This is why I am thinking that during this Soviet pre-WWII period, when an official agency or branch / department of the military requisitioned cameras from FED, the order was numbered differently than those cameras that were meant for civilian use.

So, maybe an official agency ordered a small number of cameras with the instructional plate, for their specific needs, and they were numbered in this different manner.

Regards, Bill

Hi Bill,

I do have to admit that your theory of special order with its own numbering is plausible but why start in 25xxx that's a mystery..

Hi Vlad,
It is a mystery all right. When I look at the list we have, I can see some patterns, but no doubt there are and were many more of these unusual numbered cameras. If the list was larger and the actual details of the cameras noted, then maybe we could get a better idea, of any reasons for it. It could be a reason or reasons we have not thought of, something weird such as ... when a camera was found and an owner could not be found (lost, recovered stolen property, turned in by an agency, etc.) a new one was engraved with the old number. Or, when production was reviewed and some numbers, or the records of numbers, were missing, a new production camera was given the number.

It would be interesting to see if any of the unusual number examples exist as well as the original number .. so two cameras with the same number, one older and one newer!

Regards, Bill

Also, I still have some photos of some of these cameras:

280
417
1653
1705
3504 ( and photos of the passport )
3631
3909
4586
4875
5664

And, I have an e-mail correspondence with a collector in Kharkov who had some information about a different location in Kharkov where FED had a building. He told me of a passport that had a different location on it. Probably too much stuff to put on the forum, but I can send it by e-mail.

Regards, Bill

The same plate on a 1937 Leica III:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_DSC00479.JPG

Perhaps it would be interesting you post your photos, Bill, so that we look for a relation between numbers, as I did?

Amitiйs. Jacques;

Hi Jacques,
I will post what I have. Here is the most interesting thing.

FED No. 3505 and it's passport from 1936. I can't remember where I got this. I did not own the camera and passport. Maybe this has been seen by members before.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_passport2.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_Kharkov3.jpg



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED3504-1.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED3504-2.jpg



Regards, Bill

Actually it is FED 3504.

Regards, Bill

The rest of the photos are all I have in my files. Some may be helpful.

Here is FED No. 417
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED417.jpg

Here is FED No.1653 (4 photos)

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED1653-1.jpeg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED1653-2.jpeg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED1653-3.jpeg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED1653-4.jpeg



Regards, Bill

Here is FED No. 3631 and No. 417

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED3631-417.jpg

Here is FED No. 3631

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED3631.jpg

Here is FED No. 3909


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED3909.jpg

Here is 4586



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED4586.jpg

Here is FED No. 4875


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_FED4875-1.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2872018_Fed4875-2.jpg



Regards, Bill

Here is more information in the form of e-mails between me and a man named Igor who had an unusual numbers camera for sale. It was a long time ago, but I don't have the date (before 2008). Originally I told him I thought the camera was a fake, and then we had the following exchange. He did send me photos of a building, as he promised, where he said FED worked, but I no longer have them.

Here is the exchange - sorry for the length, but maybe of some help.

Dear Bill,Thank you very much for reply.I understand you. But please don`t say
more that this camera ia a replica.I asked again about
this camera in my friend He is collector. He have camera
like this passport.Camera was made in Aug 1936, but not
on FED territory. I`ll make pics for you. I`ll show you
FED and some building where was made this camera. In
passport I found: "Made in Kharkov Lesopark (WoodPark)"
In passport usual FED address: "Kharkov, Sumskaya Str.
(I don`t remember number, I think 134)" Ask you know
like FED Berdsk was made also not of FED factory. But
this is not a replica.I don`t know why was
use incorect serial number. But this camera not a
replica.On Sunday spatial for you I`ll make pics were was
made this camera. And I`ll make pics of passport and
camera which have my friend. I`ll make new description on
this FED and will try sell it.

Dear Igor, Thanks for the photos and information
about your friend's camera. Also, please let me
apologize and say I am sorry to have called your camera a
fake.Now I can see that this is not the case. Now the mystery is ... Why does a
1936 FED have such an unusual seria lnumber? I don't
see anything unusual about the camera except for
the seria lnumber and the passport of your friends
camera. The passport if different from ones I
have seen before, as you say, because it has that
address of "Kharkov 27 - Lesopark". I have a photo
in a book (Princelle's new edition, page 90) of
a passport from a FED in February 1936. It looks
different and what I noticed is that the address is
"Kharkov 54". So this is a different part of Kharkov
than the one on your friends passport, probably. A
FED that I have from 1936 (serial # 19469) also has a
blue rangefinder,so that is probably not unusual.
The serial number for the lens you have on your camera
and the one of your friends camera does not seem to be
much different from any FED of 1936 and my camera has
a similar number. I know that FED was going
through many changes during this time and in 1936 it
was reported in Sovetsko Foto that aside from the
750 members of the FED commune, and additional 400
workers were hired from outside to work on camera
production. 1935 & 1936 is exactly when the production of
FEDs went from about 4000 per year up to about 15-20,000
a year. This period is also when the original
director, Makarenko, was directed to leave FED and
shortly after the NKVD took charge of the factory.
So, I am guessing that maybe these two cameras of you
and your friend were made at another factory at Lesnopark
(maybe a temporary factory) where the newly hired workers
were located. (And maybe they were not instructed about
the correct serial numbers to use?). In any case,
it is just a guess on my part and I don't really
know what the story is, but the cameras do look
authentic.


I have just returned and have seen your newauction.
It is an interesting camera but I still am not sure
why it has the low number. It is a FED-1b from 1936 for
sure... only the number is unusual!
Maybe it was made with that number to go with a set of
accessories, also with that number. Just at this time,
many accessories such as a lightmeter, wide & amp; telephoto
lens, and right angle viewers were being madefor the
first time for FED.


I and my friends don`t know
why was use this seria lnumbers. Friend in Kiev
also collector have FED 1 with serial 3***. I don`t know
more ppl how have or had this unusual FED. Yes, I know
usual FED`s was made in other factory (on FED). But
this camera was made in other place. If you want I can
make photo of FED and "Komunnar" (In 1936 "Komunnar"
asked "TrudovayaKomunna") I know that in Lesopark
was killed a lot soldier and traitors after war and before. In forestpark there was a military staff. And between FED and DrudKomunna there was a
small railway communication. This is all informaton in
this time which I let you know.

(Note: these e-mails may not be in order. I have lost the original e-mails and only have this text copy .. hope it helps in some way!)


Regards, Bill

Hello Bill

Thank you very much for the picture of the passport for #3504. It's an important find and it supports my opinion that this low s/n on newer cameras are upgrades to better models. In the case of the #3504 from 1934 (FED-1a) the upgrade was for the accessories shoe in 1936 (FED-1b). The passport also shows the number of the new lens for the FED-1b because earlier FED-1a maybe had there own adjusted lenses as Leica had in the early days. The number of the lens could be from 1936 or 1937 as I estimate without great knowledge of this. So I think this was a new passport made for the upgraded FED-1b.

An other sign that this really could be an upgrade is the fact that some of the short numbers are upgraded to FED-S versions as I understand.

What do you think about my conclutions?

Best wishes - Guido

Hi Guido,
Yes, it is a good explanation and makes sense. Especially because a number were upgraded to "S". An upgrade makes more sense than repair with warranty and also makes sense why so many earlier cameras were given an upgrade to a the new standards, most importantly, interchangeable lenses and the new accessories. Maybe the instructional plate was an option during upgrade (to make it more like a Leica?) but not often chosen as it has a limited purpose to someone who already knows how to use the camera, and so was rarely chosen and maybe only offered for a short time..

Regards, Bill

Thanks, Bill.

The official passport of the s/n 3504 is very interesting. Its date (20/08/1936) should lead towards a body s/n around 23000 (25000th Fed made in november 1936 -Princelle). Instead of that, we see a body in the 30/45000, by the engraving, the milling of the buttons, the vulcanite, the release button... And of course by the s/n of the lens (44236) which could denote a "real" s/n of 43504 for the body, if we look for a correlation.

There is an incoherence. The passport comes with a camera which will exist only in the future...

All that can be compared, for me, to the 1b s/n 42457, lens 47306, showed by DVD Technik and which has a passport too. http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/fed.htm
This passport reads march (?) 1937 (unsure about the month), which is coherent with what we know about the production of cameras in these years.

Jacques.

The s/n 4875 is very interesting too.
By the features, it belongs to a s/n 10000-20000. 14875 would be correct.

About upgrading, we had already discussed about this hypothesis in a previous thread (impossible to find it with the "search" function?). Leitz and Zeiss had already done that for their Leicas and Contaxes. A very interesting idea. But for the moment, I don't "feel" a general explanation which could fit all the cases.

Jacques.

Me again. Sorry!

I have just checked the dates engraved inside the body, on the shutter box, by the worker who mounted the camera. I hoped that these dates could tell us something about the insertion of these odd cameras in the regular numbering.

In fact, there is nothing completely clear if we compare the "twins":
- (2)1126 : I (mark,not date).........- 21225 : 25 IV (1936)
- (6)2092 : 26 III....................- 59349 : 19 III (1938)
- (3)3631 : 14 I......................- 34270 : 29 XII (1936)
- (2)4580 : 17 III....................- 25617 : 27 VII scratched and replaced by 7 III (1936).

- (1)25726: nothing.

Just two remarks.
- The odd numbers seem a bit delayed (several weeks), compared to the "twin" of the regular production. The time to check cameras belonging to a special series? But we have only three comparisons: not enough to be sure of anything.
- There is nothing inside the s/n 25726, which is exceptional. My Fed Arsenal and one of my Fed NKAP only are in that case! These dates will disappear somewhere in 1950.

Jacques.

Passport is no solid evidence. The text can be "washed" and rewritten.
This was done to several vehicle passports that were sold to west after USSR collapsed.
Exhaust & equipment regulations in west were more strict.
Non-privately owned vehicles became private and could be sold.
Even I had one with non authentic papers...

Best regards,
Juhani

Bill, thank you for posting your correspondence! I remember we did discuss this before on this forum. I have a contact in Kharkov I can try to see if he knows something as well about the second location.

Best regards,
Vlad

I had not seen Bill's correspondence (other page). Many thanks!
Really interesting.
The two locations could explain the differences of dates I have found. But why mount these odd cameras elsewhere? Would it be a special location for special demands: repairs, upgrading, series for administration, etc.?

As far as I can tell from the e-mail correspondence with Igor, he did not have a reason for the separate additional location for FED. But, from my own research, it appears that this was around the time when FED was expanding rapidly and so would have needed more space for all types of manufacturing, servicing, assembly, and clerical work. So it stands to reason that if there was another location, that expansion may be the reason.

As far as an old passport being altered by being 'washed', it is very unlikely. I am an art dealer by profession and know quite a bit about methods that are used to alter paper and the printed and handwritten images on it. It would be difficult, if not impossible to wash (usually using a water and bleach solution) the type of cheap paper that was used on FED passports of this era. It is possible to do so on later, better quality paper such as that used on vehicle documents, which are printed on a higher grade of paper, especially after WWII. So in my opinion, not likely or impossible in this case. Also.on this porous, large-grain type of passport paper, washing would easily show and that does not appear to be the case on this one.

Regards, Bill

Bill, et al,

I've talked to my contact in Kharkov who is familiar with FED factory and its location, basically Lesopark 27 and Sumskaya 135 or whatever number it was it's the same one building, Lesopark is just a larger area that spans 9km like a forest preserve complex surrounding the factory. So the address was apparently written either/or sometime in second half of 1930s.

Best regards,
Vlad