Fed-1A or 1B?

Hello everyone,
I'm pleased to say that I am back home in England now, at least for a couple of weeks anyway.
I have started to enter serial numbers, etc into the WIKI, but as usual whilst sorting my cameras have noticed a couple of anomilies. For a example I have a Fed-1, which looks like a nice 1B, but the serial number says it should be 1A. This is a clean honest camera and seems to be in original condition. any thoughts?
The main differences from a normal 1A are square rangefinder window, accessory shoe, and later engraving, (as 1B).
BTW the camera behind in the top picture is No 8172, and it has a notched rangfinder window.

Hi Jim,

Your # 4875 is of course a 1b with a reingraved serial number. Possibly an error or an 1a resent to the factory to be repaired. The factory could have sent a new one with the previous number. But nobody knows exactly. I own such a 1b (#1126) which visibly should be numbered between 10 and 20000.

Your 8172 is a beautiful 1b2, if I can say, the 1b1 being without accessory clip. Numbers between 7800-8700 for these 1b2, as far as I know.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

isn't it a "transition" model (i possess some as this) whith "big head" and depression under speed drum,
missing in Princelle's references ?

Hi Jim,
I have seen this many times and even have two examples myself. I have consulted with others about this as well.

There seem to be at least two or three schools of thought, although everyone seems to agree that these cameras are FED-1B cameras.

Some think that these cameras are mis-numbered, with the last digit being left off by the person who engraved the numbers.

Others have ideas that there may have either been another small FED factory (in the Lesopark district of Kharkov) where a separate group of cameras were made and numbered separately (but for what reason).

One other thing I have though is that possibly, during this period, when an owner of an earlier FED went to have it fixed by FED, they just gave the owner a new FED and engraved the old number on it.

The two cameras I own are identical to yours as far as all features and the serial numbers are No.3631 and No.417. As well, I have a photo of a passport (from a Russian collector in Kharkov) dated 1936 with camera No.3504. Below are some photos.

I think that these cameras are not just "mis-numbered", but I don't know the real reason or answer. I think it would be good to have a catalog entry for them, with a list of serial numbers. It could be called "FED-1B- Unusual Numbers". Maybe someday we will find a good explanation.

passport from Russian collector - front


passport from Russian collector - inside


Bill's camera No.3631


Bill's camera No.417


Bill's cameras - front views




Regards, Bill

Jacques, Bill,
Thanks for the excellent information. In fact this camera is a beauty and a joy in itself, I'm sure that this is it's original condition.
I'm pleased to be in such good company with this camera

Regards,
Jim

It seems that these uniquely numbered cameras are all of the same type and time and date between 1936 and 1939, approximately, and so must represent a specific practice at FED during those years. Probably not, just mis-numbering, in my opinion.

And, why would a camera that was being repaired and so had the old number engraved on a new camera, come with a new passport? These cameras all have the same style vulcanite and other features of a 1936 - 1939 camera and none of the features of the earlier FED-1A which you would think would be the case if they were just repaired.

Maybe there was some practice at FED during these years just to just replace a broken camera and issue a new passport with the old number on the passport and the camera.

Or, one other idea I have had is that they may have been of some military issued series, as when you look at the front of the passport that I pictured in my post above, the "FED" logo seems different than what I have seen before and also includes a "hammer and sickle" and a "star", symbols of the Soviet military. I have not seen this before.

The Russian collectors from Kharkov that I once talked to said there was a separate additional production facility of FED at Lesopark, which has a somewhat unique history with the Soviet military also.



Regards, Bill

Bill,
Thanks again for the additional information. I think all this goes to prove the importance of recording serial numbers. Already we are gaining valuable information from each other.
I have already logged some stuff into the WIKI, my two Fed-S, Fed-1 Berdsk, Fed-Zorki, Fed lenses and so on. Tomorrow I will enter all my Fed-1's up to 1d.
Cheers,
Jim.

Hi,
Really interesting!
Thanks, Bill! It's the first time I see a passport for such a camera...
The serial number of the lens (44236) shows that the body should belong to the same numbers: not far from 44000. And the large YCCP engraving confirms it. So such a camera, body and lens, was officially recorded by Fed. I was in doubt on that point till now... Of course, a new entry for these odd # would be appropriate, but not only for the 1b: some strange Fed 1S c exist too: they are on the S listing.

To Alain: we can call the 1b with notched window as "transition models". But in fact, there would be three transition models:
- without clip, with notched window (1b1),
- with clip and notched window (1b2),
- with clip and rectangular window with recess (1b3)
before the plain 1b: rectangular window flush with the cover.
I had used a classification inspired by Pegorari (1b1..)to be more clear.

Thanks, Jim to give us such a discussion about Feds!
Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi All
Please help
where is this serial number wiki that everyone is entering numbers into -

Hi tunznath,

Welcome to the site!

Well FED 1A serials should go into this entry:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=98&ParentID=1&ContentID=87&Item=FED+1a

Even though there are none there right now for this particular model, you can create heading inside entry called Known Serial Numbers and list the serials you know of... I know FED-1S had serial numbers in the entry, I am not so sure whether Jacques and others created a list of 1A and where it is..

Vlad.

Hi,
We didn't create a list about the 1a.
Perhaps we could: in that case, it would be by the entry given by Vlad.
Anyway, it seems to me less useful than for the S: we do know where the 1a are (between 1 and c6000). The S are on the whole range of c, d and e... Or if we do, perhaps we could note the different parameters one can have on a 1a: vulcanite (thin or rough), body chromed, burnished or black...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Vlad
Thanks for the welcome will have a look now

Hi,

one more odd camera to our list ... This particular Fed is identical to cameras in range #35.000-#45.000 and coming with lens #41552.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/P7310032rsz.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/P7310005rsz.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/P7310009rsz.jpg

Best Regards,
Aidas

I agree with you, Aidas.
With such a serial number of the lens, the camera was certainly originally numbered by the factory. Bill showed us a passport which seems to prove it.
Strange...

Jacques.

Regarding the Lesopark idea, Bill, I think it is the address for the FED commune, and not a subdivision.. so not sure about the 2 FED factories idea.. do you have any more info on that?

Vlad

Hi everyone,

Aidas, is this camera,(1032) yours? If so congratulations! Several months have now passed since this topic was first raised, and in that time I have given this subject some thought.
It seems to me that the best explaination for the existence of these cameras is the one first put forward by Bill and supported by Jacques. That is to say that these, (Fed-1-b) cameras with Fed-1-a serial numbers are replacement cameras for faulty Fed-1-a cameras with a corresponding serial number. This latest find by Aidas also seems to support this idea.
The reasons that I support Bill's idea are as follows.

1: During the time the Fed-1-a was in production, (1934/1935) the Communards would have been young and inexperienced, and no doubt they would have made many mistakes in those early days.

2: The new tooling and machinery for making the camera parts would still to some extent have been experiencing "teething problems", and would still have needed "tuning".

3: At that time none of the workers, or Communards had yet gained any experience or knowledge of how to repair these cameras when they didn't work properly.

4: Because none of the workers yet had any experience in repairing these cameras, It would have been easier for "Fed" to simply replace a faulty camera with a new one, and engrave the number from the faulty camera on it.

5: At this time with the production of a their very first camera under way "Fed" would have been very concious that they needed to establish a good reputation, and they wouldn't have wanted negative feed back from the people who had bought the cameras.


6: All of the cameras from our own collections which show this anomaly ie, "Fed-1-a" serial number, but with a "Fed-1-b" body, would have had in all cases a serial below 55,000 if they had been part of normal production, (produced between 1935/1937). This ties in well with a guarantee period of one year for a "Fed-1-a".

7: I would guess that the practice of replacing faulty cameras with new ones would have been phased out as the Communards became more skilful, and by the time the "Fed-1-C" was in production the Communards would have learned how to repair a faulty camera, hence no longer any need to replace it with a new one.

Best wishes to all, Jim

Vlad,

I had information that about 1937 FED expanded, not only in the number of workers, but also expanded their facilities (I think another building at Lesopark) and, if I remember correctly, this building had a different address than seen on other passports. I am trying to see if I can locate the information that I had, and if I find it I will post it.

Also around this time (1936 - 1939), many things were happening with FED as well as with NKVD and somethings happened at Lesopark with NKVD (bad stuff). This time was when FED became under the control of the NKVD. When they expanded by 750 new commune members and "backed up by 400 people from outside" (Princelle page 89). When labor communes like FED were abolished. When Makarenko (founder of the commune) was transferred away and eventually was disappeared (April 1939). So, a lot was happening in this period.

I think comparisons between the passport I pictured above, from one of these low numbered late FEDs, and other passports from normally numbered passports from this period, might help to give some information.

A dealer that I knew in Kharkov, who I bought the FED-6TTLs from, actually sent me photos of that passport (shown above). He was also interested in this mystery and actually went to Lesopark to find the old FED building, and he sent me photos of it. So I will try to find them to see if it is a different FED building or the one we usually see.

What happened to that original FED building (shown on page 89 of Princelle)? Is that the same building that later FEDs, after the War were made in? And is that one in the photo in Lesopark?
Lots of questions ... sorry!

Regards, Bill

Vlad,

Here is what I found so far: The seller who gave me the photos of that passport said about that camera and passport:

"Camera was made in Aug 1936, but not on FED territory. ... "

Also he mentions another address for a FED Passport, "Kharkov, Sumskaya Str.(I don't remember number, I think 134)".

As well, the passport shown on page 90 of Princelle has an address of "Lesopark 54" (for FED #16721 - 1936) and below is a passport from 1941, shown on the DVD Tech site (and Luiz's NOVACON) with the same address (Leopark 54) and for FED-S #180024.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/017.jpg

So at least two addresses in Lesopark (or two buildings) #27 and #54. And during the same period of time.


Regards, Bill

Hi Bill,

I had noticed there were two addresses and I imagined the 27th was the previous one, the 54th being the new one for the growing factory. And I had not had the idea of taking my magnifier to check the 90th page of the JLP...
So we have now three addresses for the same period. I didn't know the Sumskaya one.

Of course, this question is very important to know what happens to the factory, especially in the last months. I already used the passport you show (from DVD) to say that contrarily to what we usually think, Fed S-s could have been made in Kharkov up to the serial # c. 180xxx. And so they would not deserve their name of "Berdsk". But it's another matter.

Very interested by this topic which shows life under our collections. Without these investigations, our cameras are nothing but dead things...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Bill,

Couple of bits of information and a theory:

1. Sumskaya ulitsa seems to be the current FED address

2. Lesopark was a large undeveloped area on the outskirts of Kharkov along one of the main highways as far as I know, once they started building commune there they would just start numbering buildings in that Lesopark area (ForestPark).. my neighbor is from Kharkov I will find out more details from him.

3. Regarding numbering I have a theory of my own: In the book that Aidas posted recently about Pioner and FAG it says that after a year of production at FED the manufacturing had went through complete overhaul and the started making a different quality level of camera (which matched the quality of Leica)... my guess is maybe they had restarted numbers from the beginning after that happened, considering the FED-1a as preseries numbering of an unsuccessful unreliable trial series? What do you think of that?

4. Expanding the manufacturing to another building on the campus seems unlikely to warrant a new numbering system, but everything is of course possible

5. Jim's theory makes a lot of sense, and I think this is what led me to this of my point #3

Vlad

Also my theory is that Sumskaya is the address FED relocated to after the war or they had changed the address after the Lesopark was urbanized.