Sonnar lens 58 f1.5

one more Sonnar 14XXXXX in Leica M9!
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1952013_m9sonnar.png

and more about 60mm Sonnar
http://www.pigment-print.com/Fotografica/CJZ%20Sonnar%2060%20f1.5%20LTM/target1.html

and a pinhole lens for Contax Rangefinder!
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/17156192_zeiss-ikon-contax-pinhole-lens-serno-c1950

About this 1407xxx series, I have 22 lenses in my data, from 1407018 to 1407485. So probably 500 of them were made.
Thanks, Luiz, for the first serial number.

Jacques.

Hello,

I posted this on the rangefinderforum, but I think some of the collectors here could be interested also. It is an interesting story about east German black market lenses. Please forgive me if you already have read this elsewhere.

I recently bought a strange light alloy uncoated Sonnar 1.5 5cm in Contax mount. This lens is from a German collector who, in the 1970s, checked the focal length because it was bigger than a normal Sonnar. It was found it is close to 60mm, even if it is marked as a 5cm lens. It has also six spanner slots in the rear. It really looks like the 5.8cm ltm lenses...
Here are some pictures of it, compared to a wartime German Sonnar.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar_60_barrel_lo.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_mount.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_number.jpg

A close up shot of the aperture mechanism:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/492013_sonnar60_internal.jpg

I asked the seller about this lens, he replied :

quote:

---

In 1954-55 I bought a Kiev-camera and this lens in a then still private shop for photo-articles in Halle Saale (East-Germany) Kiev-cameras were then assembled illegally by employees of Zeiss-Jena in the Saalfeld-facctory from left-over parts from the years 1947-48 and sold on the black market or to some private shops with Sonnars 2,0 of original production smuggled out. The 1,5 lens I additional bought then was made of left-over wartimes-production of Sonnar 6cm lens blocks, made for bomb-sights originally, f-stops mechanics and blades added later. Black market only, too. It was a quite big, illegal "enterprise", later with real good mechanical parts and engraving, some with coated front lenses. Ended in the mid-fifties with many prison-sentences.

---

The 5.8cm ltm sonnar lenses probably come from this black market operation too. Not really a "fake" product, because produced by Zeiss employees with Zeiss parts, but rather a black market / illegal product.

Tomorrow I will show it to an experienced repairman : I'd like to use this lens but as it is, it does not really work. With a focal length close to 60mm, the helical pitch in the Contax mount or in my adapters is wrong.

Exciting! Thanks, S.H.!
Your lens could be a true 1,5/6cm rather than a 5,8cm: I never saw such a serial number in the 5,8cm lenses.

Of course, the Thiele does not know this lens. Not surprising. But no doubt the inscriptions on the beauty ring are original.

Please, tell us what your specialist will say. You will try it on a Contax, I suppose?

Finally, I wonder if my huge 1,5/5cm would not be a 6cm...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Well, I can already tell you that on my M8 + Contax => Leica adapter, it does not focus right under 6 or 8 meters. Infinity at f8 is usable.

The markings look right to me and the s/n could be from around 1949/50. Plausible.

If your 1.5 / 5cm is bigger compared to a regular lens, this is probably another one.

I should go more often on RFforum...
It is right to remember that a genuine 1,5/6cm was made by Zeiss, probably as a trial, for the Contax I. It is noted by Kuc in his first book.

I think that what the seller told you is certainly the truth or a good part of it. It would explain the variability of the mounts, of the markings, and even the coating of some lenses...

Most interesting...
Jacques.

I also find a number of camera lens on a website!!
http://is.gd/BQAo64

some are good and cheap!!

Hi!! Welcome!!

The repairman took a look at it with a collimator and a Contax III, it is well calibrated at infinity. Image quality is good. On a M9 + adapter, of course, close focus is wrong. I think this is the same optical elements than the lens shown in Kuc's book : in this book it is also said that the rangefinder is not to be used at close distance.

I'll try to use a camera body with it, but I don't know if I will find a way to tune the RF at close distance... on a Contax/Kiev I would need a new helical, on a Leica the RF adjustments are probably not sufficient.

On RFF, you had said that perhaps you would try with a Zorki you have.
Always on that track?

I will try my two odd 1,5 Sonnar lenses (the huge 5cm and the 5,8cm) on my M2 in a while. Impossible for the moment. It could give an information for the Zorki...

The Zorki RF has two adjustment points : infinity and 1 meter. My lens is good at infinity, so if I calibrate the Zorki RF at 1 meter it will be false everywhere else. I would have to add some parameter in here, such as machining the RF cam of the adapter : look at the rear of the 5.8cm / 6cm lenses, some do not have a simple cylindrical cam but there is a slope here as you pointed it yourself. Here is your picture seen earlier in the thread:




I may be wrong, but such a lens could be done with a "standard" helical fit for a true 5cm Sonnar, the slope in the cam taking into account the difference in focal length.

So in my case with a contax mount I have some theoretical options :
- modify the RF cam of an existing Contax => Leica adapter or jupiter mount (if it fits) : very hard to do properly, I'm not in a Zeiss Factory
- get a barrel from a junked 5.8cm lens, the optical module can perhaps be swapped
- make a custom helical and cam (impossible, costs for calculations and production would be astronomically costly)
- modify a the RF of a specific body, but I do not know if it is really possible. there are always parameters to tune up in RF mechanisms, but here the focal length is clearly different so it is probably not enough.

For the last point, I must think about it with the various repairmen I know. Anyway, it is a fun little problem to think about :)

My big coated 1,5/5cm has a slope on the RF cam too. But officially, it's a 5cm, not a 5,8 or 6cm...
Ask if you want photos of this cam. If you want measures, it would be easier for me by pm in French!

Thanks! I will think about it if I need it.

In the meantime, I just came across this on ebay :


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/592013_front.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/592013_side.jpg

see it here : http://www.ebay.com/itm/EX-Carl-Zeiss-Jena-Sonnar-60mm-f-1-5-original-Leica-LTM-mount-60-f1-5-/310737136790

Sloped cam too... and also, outrageous price at USD 2,370 . Note, this one close to f/11 only.

I have just tried the two lenses.

The 1,5/5,8cm, with screwed RF, is perfect on my M2 (with LTM/M bag). On the IIIg too.

The 1,5/5cm, with a sloped RF, is curious on the M2: infinity at 5m, good at 1,20m (the last distance where the tip is in contact), nothing below (lens graduated down to 0,80m).
On my IIIg, the infinity is fine. All is OK down to 1,05, then the tip unhangs.

Certainly, a problem of compatibility with the ring for the M2. And a question of shape of tip/shape of RF for the IIIg below 1,05m...

All that will be confirmed with a film inside the IIIg.

I had seen the 1,5/6cm on eBay. Interesting (not concerning the price!).

I have tried the two lenses on my Leica IIIg (on a Leica only because they are both m marked).

The big coated 1,5/5cm does not be screwed easily on the camera (the same on a Fed) as if the metallurgy was imperfect. In fact, I don't feel the point where I must stop screwing. I made only three photos with this lens: not sharp, not neat, as if the focus was incorrect. I will have it regulated if I want to use it...

The 1,5/5,8cm has no problem, except between 1,20m and 1 meter which is the limit. In fact, the rangefinder cannot follow the inner movement of the lens below 1,20m because of its shape.
Here is a photo with this lens:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1992013_CCI19092013_00000.bmp

Really, I am much surprised by the contrasts given by this non coated lens. The general looking is the one of my best Sonnars...

Jacques.

Another one, this time at the limits of the lens (more or less 1,20m without foot, wide open, 1/500th. Cloudy weather). Always without correction when scanning.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1992013_CCI19092013_00001.bmp

With the limits noted in the precedent post concerning focussing, I am perplex...

Jacques.

Thanks for the pictures. It seems it is a good lens. I found mine also has good contrast, even if it is uncoated. But it will be very hard to adapt it on a Leica/contax body, except at infinity.

I am always with the exotic Sonnars... Glass probably made prewar by Zeiss, mounted postwar by whom?

Here, side by side, my former one (the one which I used to make the photos) and the new one. Exactly the same, except for the rangefinder ring: slopy on the new one.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1112014_DSCF1597.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1112014_DSCF1598.JPG

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Has someone see it? I never had a notivce of another.
http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/zeissikon2.htm

Regards LP