early Kiev RF was sold on eBay. No serial number?

Interesting early Kiev without serial number just sold on eBay.
(ebay number 121555627620)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Kiev-USSR-35mm-Rangefinder-Camera-NO-SERIAL-W-Jupiter-8-Lens-/121555627620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4d47ae64

Hopefully someone from this forum now is proud owner of this camera.
Why no serial number? Could it be per-production camera?

A very interesting camera. The distance ring and the rewind button have Zeiss origins. The back part too, even if it has no Zeiss logo.

It would be interesting to dismount the front plate. Perhaps there is a Zeiss engraving at the reverse, like on the early 1947/48 Kievs with Zeiss Dresden parts?

Perhaps a pre production camera. Or a camera made with spare parts.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Just a word more. Most of the prewar Contaxes didn't have the s/n in the accessory shoe, like the Kievs. Their s/n was on the base of the shutter box and on the inside of the removable back part.

Jacques.

Or... someone had replaced the Kiev shoe with Contax shoe like here which has no serial # or engraving...


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/322015_zctxII_prom02.jpg

oh sorry, Jacques, I didn't see your second post, I basically said the same thing

A bit OT, but what a marvelous Nokton on your Contax, Vlad!
A dream...

It's not my contax, just a picture I found online

Hi,

I hardly resisted the temptation but I ended thinking that camera is a private remade from spare parts. Both Kiev and Contax parts. Top plate leatherette does not match with back door ; front plate 6 screws look like new... A sticker "made in Russia"....

Hi everybody,

The man who bought this camera asked me to inspect the body. Still the camera is on the half-way to the new owner. My rough estimate that the camera is 70% original (by the way the different leatherette on the back door says in favor of originality and indicates the very early batch of Kievs). More I would say (and promise to show the corresponding photos) after the inspection of the body.

Altix, anxiously looking forward for your analysis! Would love to see the inside of the front plate!

Best regards,
Vlad.

Me too!
Sure we will have a number of Dresden parts. But as to get the proof that all was mounted in 1947/48 by Arsenal...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Dear Vlad and Jacques,

I expect that there is no Contax engraving left on the inside of the front plate. As far as I remember only cameras with the engraved name Kiev have the Contax inscription inside the front plate. Only this batch of cameras was assembled in Arsenal from Contax bodies. Since that time Arsenal was unable to produce the front plates by themselves (probably not all tools had arrived from Jena) they decided to correct the Contax plates and engrave the name. Note that the chrome on such cameras is shiny.

The camera sold on ebay has slightly dull chrome on the front plate. I think this plate was produced in Jena and replaced the original Dresden one. The rest of the camera is Contax of M series. I believe that Peter Hennig has right:

"In 1947 approximately 2000 Contax cameras were officially built in this project at the Zeiss factory in Jena. The majority of these were the Contax II model, along with a few Contax III and some others wearing the new name; KIEV in heavy Cyrillic block letters. There were also an unknown number of cameras built unofficially. Parts were smuggled by members of the staff, and assembled at home in to a complete numberless cameras for selling on the black market. This was an unofficially accepted method for key persons to get food on the table in those hard days. Also the company itself assembled both numberless Contax and Kiev engraved cameras, probably as bribes for the use in the SMAD administration, in order to get raw material and other kinds of favours."

So the camera was planned as a gift to Soviet occupation authorities (the name is in Russian). I also saw several Contaxes without numbers that were most probably assembled from parts for German black market.

To summarize I don't expect any Contax name left on the opposite side of front plate and I think that the camera left Saalfeld factory and was planned as a gift or a bribe. Of course I am waiting for the camera for more detailed analysis.

with best regards, altix

Hi Altix!

Thanks for these news, and this part of history.
So, we will wait a bit more!

Some years ago, I had made a comparison between a Contax II O series and two Jena Contaxes.
http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1639&SearchTerms=jena,contax

Amitiйs. Jacques.

I dismanteled the Kiev and here are my observations.

The camera was kept a long time in moist conditions. The lens is completely ruined by fungus. The bolts that hold the winding knob are not covered with chrome and were rusty.

There are some other details that says that this Kiev was assembled from the unfinished spare parts of Contax. These are: bolts that hold the winding knob, bolts that hold the tripod socket (not painted with black), two bolts on the bottom of the housing that hold the shutter and the self-timer housing (not painted with black), the bolt that holds the self-timer arm (differs from the standard one and is not covered with shiny chrome). There are some other small defects that indicate that the camera was assembled from the rejected spare parts.

The camera was never repaired or opened. At least I did not find the indications of that. The front plate with Kiev name was
removed by somebody and one glass from the smaller rangefinder window is missing. I think that the reason of plate removal was exactly removal of this glass. Probably it was cracked or somebody needed a thin glass. Anyway, the front plate is original or at least is the same as the front plate of Kievs from 1947 to 1949 (the rim around the bayonet typical to Contaxes and not of Kiev-like from fifties). The front plate does not contain any signs of Contax engraving on the inner side (as I expected). There is a small engraving of rectangular window (or of the cross inside the square) on the inner side. This was engraved before the plate has been plated.

The chrome is different in every part of the camera. The front plate is satin and not so mat as on Kiev from 1952 or later. The top plate is shiny with a fine grain chrome plating (like from Contax of M series) . The bottom plate is shiny with grainy chrome (like from Contax of J series). By the way the back door does not perfectly fit the body but it does not affect the camera functionality. This fact also shows that the camera is assembled from spare parts of different Contax series with no high standards of Zeiss Ikon strict control.

Almost all camera parts are from Dresden Contax line except the leather on the back door and on the camera front. This leather is alike on the structure to the leather used on Contax Jena. The leather of Ukrainian Kievs of 40-es and early 50-es is less grainy and differs by the structure of inner surface. The chellac that glues the "Jena" leather is dark and it seems that there was a shortage of it since the leather is glued on metal by small separated islands of chellac. This was a reason that one piece of leatherette is missing.

The rangefinder is of Contax type with a gold plating of the splitting-image surface of the prism. The construction of it is typical to Contax rangefinders of Dresden epoch.

The shutter is from Zeiss Ikon Contax. Ribbons are of white color and the leather on the lifting heel (the lower shutter drum) is from brown leather and not from red or white suede as on Kievs. The shutter housing has "H" marking on the front face and there is a scratched number "13" on the place where Kiev's shutters have their engraved numbers. Since the numbers on the shutter of Kievs'47 coincide with the last digits in the camera serial numbers one can speculate that Kiev under inspection is 13th Kiev ever made. Definitely this number is the only marking that was done by assembling the camera. But I would say that this is a 13th Kiev in the batch of 'unnumbered' Kievs prepared as a bribery for Soviet occupation authorities.

This Kiev has another numbers: "41" on the camera body, "8829" on the bayonet (engraved on the right lower side as on ZI Contaxes), "831" on the plate that covers the shutter and guides the film transport.

This Kiev does not have a strong smell of decayed lubricant as old Kievs have.

I will show some pictures later since I need to transfer them on my laptop.

So, an illegal Kiev made of Dresden parts. There were too "illegal" Jena Contaxes...
Probably made at Kiv's by what you say?
If it is possible, could you precise on photos the different places where you found the numbers you speak of, so that we can make comparisons with our cameras?

Many thanks for your very complete study, Altix!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Dear Jacques,

I believe that "illegal" Kievs and Jena Contaxes were produced in Jena. Illegal Kievs were for Soviet occupation authorities and "illegal" Contaxes were for black market. By the way Nippon Kogaku also produced cameras marked as "samples" for potential foreign camera distributors in 1948-51. These cameras were presented to the potential dealers but such kind of marketing strategy was not successful.

I prepared a scheme of places where one can find numbers on Kiev without the number.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2222015_b1.jpg

Here are some markings on Kiev from 1950:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2222015_b2.jpg



http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2222015_b3.jpg

All these markings are aids for the correct assembly. So one should not pay much attention to them. But I find them funny.

Here is a letter "F" on the top plate of Kiev II from 1951.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2222015_b4.jpg

After 1952 Latin letters were replaced with the numbers.

with best regards
altix

Dear Altix,

Really extraordinary, and beautiful!
Thanks for the schemes and the explanations as well!

If I dared... Do you have explanations about the meaning of the numbers? Do you want us to have a look at our Kievs and collect these numbers?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Dear Jacques,

I don't think that all these markings are interesting to investigate. They are all random and were used as an aid during the assembly of the camera. I am just curious if Contax Jena has similar letters on the inner side of the top plate from aluminium alloy. I think this marking tradition of the top plate started in the early days of Kiev production.

I also noticed that early Arsenal Kievs have hand written markings done with a pencil. These are Latin letters and they appear almost on every principal blocks of Kiev mechanisms. I think these markings were made by the quality inspector. My Kiev III from 52 has letter "R" on such blocks. So most probably a German specialist checked the quality of the camera.

with best regards
altix

About the Jena Contaxes, you have a partial answer in the link I pointed above. Ulrich had dismounted his one, and it seems there were no inscriptions. I will check with my s/n 11836 which is one of the first regularly produced in Jena.

Toute mon amitiй. Jacques.