A 1953 Kiev II with German parts (?)

Hi,

Here's some close up pictures of a Kiev II from 1953. Some parts seems from German manufacture (focusing wheel, counter dial, lens mount)- quite uncommon, that camera is a late Kiev II.

I saw this camera on ebay recently. I would say that it is Contax with Kiev front plate and serial number. The flash socket is later addition and is not like Arsenal ones. Probably modified in Hungary. Perhaps in 1953 a batch of Contaxes was discovered in warehouses of Arsenal and used in order to save time and money. There are no much cameras were released in 1953. Probably workers were too unhappy (or too happy) that Stalin died. So the discovery of Contaxes was good possibility to fulfill the gosplan.

Hi Altix,

Thanks for comments. You're right I bought it recently well aware that the camera has something special. I agree with you it seems a Contax with Kiev front plate.

Another clue :

Dear Jed,

it is hard to judge from the pictures but it seems that the chrome on the front plate is too shiny. It is unusual for cameras from 1953. It is also strange that the front plate has the rim around the bayonet in Contax style. It puzzles me. It can be that the camera body is not from 1953 (of course it is Contax, but I mean the last modification of the body on Arsenal factory ). Or the whole story could be a bit more complicated as I mentioned above.

To guess its origin it would help if you remove the front plate and look on the rear side. A good hint would be if you say what kind of rangefinder this camera has. Is it split as it is standard for Zeiss Ikon Contaxes? (it would be great if you can make a photo of a big rangefinder window). Definitely the camera is interesting.

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Originally posted by altix

Dear Jed,

it is hard to judge from the pictures but it seems that the chrome on the front plate is too shiny. It is unusual for cameras from 1953.

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You're right. Front plate is shiny like a Contax one. No comparison with a 1950-51 Kiev (I own 6 and I've just checked)

quote:

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Originally posted by altix

It can be that the camera body is not from 1953

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My thoughts really.

quote:

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Originally posted by altix
A good hint would be if you say what kind of rangefinder this camera has. Is it split as it is standard for Zeiss Ikon Contaxes?

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Zeiss no doubt. I'll post pictures

The shiny front plate says that the front plate on the camera was probably replaced in Jena factory. Recently we discussed a very similar camera http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2771
Here is a photo of it

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2842015_12.jpg

Your camera seems to be from the first batch of Kievs that arrived from Jena to Kiev. They are actually Dresden Contaxes that were inspected, calibrated in Jena and with minor cosmetic changes sent to Arsenal. The absence of traces of Contax engraving on the rear part of the plate will support this hypothesis. In this case the shoe with 53 was placed instead the original shoe.

If there are some traces of Contax engraving (which I find rather impossible) it would mean that the camera came directly from Dresden to Kiev and there was modified in 1953.

Could you also share a close up of the leatherette of the camera back door?

Altix, I am sorry if I missed some of your posts before, I don't have as much time to read every post lately, but what makes you believe that Jena actually made Kiev-branded cameras? What is the actual proof of that?

Thanks,
Vlad

Dear Vlad,

we discussed this few years ago. Here is a nice table in the article of Berndt Otto http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_7.pdf

Here is a famous photo (taken from Hans-Juergen Kuc book)


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2942015_13.jpg

I am almost convinced that the camera is from the very early batch of Dresden Contaxes modified in Jena and sent to Kiev. Probably the flash synchronization was done in Jena too.

The leatherette on the back is the same as on no-number Kiev I've mentioned above. Unfortunately the leather on Kiev cameras from 1953 has very similar structure. But it seems that the leather on the front is from Dresden Contax. It is curious since on no-number Kiev Dresden leatherette is only on the top thin stripe near the strap lugs.

I still don't know why the shoe with the later number appear. In order to know it I would like to ask Jed to tell me about this shoe. Is it covered with shiny chrome? Jed if you could measure the diameter of cylindrical stopper on the shoe with a caliper. This would help to reconstruct the history of camera migration.

It would be also interesting to see the camera with removed back door. Namely the closeup of flash socket connection.

with best regards
altix

Hi,

Here's some other pictures. The hot shoe looks like a Kiev part without shiny chrome.

I may dismantle the camera in the evening. I'm reluctant to do this as the camera works fine but will do. I repair old Kiev and Contax so no problem at all.

Jed, what a great find. After reading the posts and looking at the pictures it seems that you have one of the KIEVs that were made in Jena.

If you dismantle it take a look if there is an number on the back of the shutter, my early Kievs have a scratched in number with characteristical numbers (non runded digits). It would also be interesting if there is an Contax name seen on the back of the front plate that was stamped out before re-engraving the KIEV name.

Maybe the shoe was changed at the time when the flash sync was installed?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

As far as I see the shoe is not of usual Arsenal production. In 1953 they were to dull with a thick cylindrical stopper (something like 6mm in diameter). It seems that the shoe is original and was modified from the no-number shoe. The engraving was done in Arsenal in 1953 and was filled with black paint (I expect there is no chrome under this paint). Usual shoes from 53 are without the black paint and digits looks like to be stamped and with thicker font.

The history of this camera for me looks like the following: The camera was produced in Dresden and was kept there in warehouses. In 1945 it was sent to Jena. This batch contained the no-number camera I mentioned above. In 46-47 these cameras were equipped with a new front plate and new leatherette on the back door. In 1947 these cameras were sent to Kiev. In Kiev they were kept in warehouse and were forgotten. In 1953 the cameras were discovered and were engraved with the serial number. The no-number camera was discovered much later (perhaps in the beginning of 90-ies, I have indirect proof of it) and was not numbered at all. At least these cameras are from the very early batch of Dresden-Jena Contax-Kievs brought to Kiev.

I expect there are no traces of Contax engraving left on the front plate since the plate was produced in Jena. The number scratched on the shutter housing would be something like xx or xxx if more than hundred such cameras existed. It would be probably scratched rather than engraved. And I don't think that the font would be with no rounded digits as Ulrich assumes.

If you, Jed, remove the front plate please look on any markings. I've found the scratched sign like a window on no-number Kiev.

Jacques M. has found a real jewel of the early Jena Contax story. He planned to post his find on ussrphoto. It is not Soviet camera but is interesting evolution specimen in the history of Kiev migration to USSR. Now I think intrigued everyone enough .

A very good find, Jed!
I think too that this camera was made in Dresden before it was sent to Jena. The original chrome of Dresden was very rough in the 1941-45 years and the front plate must have been changed at Jena. The Jena chrome is much softer, like on your camera, as it seems. All that before it was sent to Kiev.

But Altix has already said all that. He could not hold his about my new Contax! Yes, I will post soon.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi all,

Please ask more pictures if wanted before I put everything back again

Jed, a closeup of the arrow of the selftimer would be interesting. As I remember we have found out something some times ago about the style of the arrow (different styles on Jena Contax, normal Contax and early Kievs).

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Ulrich,

Here's a close up picture :

Dear Jed,

It looks like the number was erased from the shutter housing. What do you think? The scratched number can be very very faint and difficult to see. Play with the light probably under some angle you would be able to see it.

Since there are no traces of Contax engravings on the front plate, the camera came from Dresden to Kiev through Jena as I described. Otherwise it would mean that Contax front plate was converted into Kiev one on the Arsenal factory in 1953. It seems that was practiced only for very early batch 1947 Kiev with italic font. Later they just replaced the Contax plates with the produced in Arsenal. Quite reasonable.