The importance of serial numbers

Hello everybody,
I would like to say a few things about serial numbers, and how important they are to us.
I don't know who instigated the Wiki catalogue, (perhaps Vlad), but in any case it is a brilliant idea and a good way to record a lot of important data.
For example I often wonder how many of the early Soviet cameras that were produced survive to the present day.
The serial numbers provide a good guide to how many were produced, but how many still exist? For the Fotokor is it five percent?, or ten percent?, or fifty percent?. for the Kiev II is twenty percent? or thirty percent? For the Fed-1A of six thousand produced in the mid 1930's how many of these exist now? and so on.
By logging serial numbers in the Wiki catalogue we can gain and record much important information and data.
My fear is that without people like us this information will be lost forever.
So, when I return to my home in England at the end of this month one of the first things that I will do is start to enter details of my collction into the Wiki catalogue.
Regards, Jim

Could not agree more on the importance James, but... our little group here is just a drop in the ocean, I am not sure how much reliable data we can extrapolate even with our best efforts..

If we log serial numbers some of the data will be indicative of production in various ways and I am enthuiastic to join in and log everything I have that is relevant. I agree with Jim also!

Regards, Bill

Vlad,

Of course you are correct, we are just a drop in the ocean, and we don't even know how big the ocean of colletors is.
Nevertheless I still think the excercise is worthwhile and will produce at least some results however small. I think this is worth the effort even if only to expand our fund of knowledge and data.
We already have some baselines from which to start. For example Okynek's recent post concerning the relationship between a Fed-1g body and it's lens. Jacques has done a lot of work in trying to make some sense from the numbering of Fed-1 lenses and suspects that the Industar 10 may possibly have been manufactured at several factories. Perhaps we will never know for sure, but I think that we have enough Fed-1's between us to possibly show some pattern or relationship between the batches of lenses and the camera bodies. As a minimum we can show that the lens serial numbers just don't make sense!
Another good example would be the Fed-S. We think that around two thousand of these were produced. Jacques has five, I have two, and other forum members have others. In addition other sources such as books, eBay etc, can also provide data. We could possibly establish from the relationship between the body and lens serial numbers new information which at the moment is not apparent, ie the lowest and highest lens serial numbers, do they logically match the lowest and highest body serial numbers? As a minimum we should learn over what period of time these cameras were produced.
It's probably unfair of me to continually use the Fed-1 as an example. There are of course many other cameras that we still don't know too much about, but the Fed-1 is a prime candidate. We know so much about the Fed-1, yet there remain many mysteries to be solved, and Hey, being a detective is fun isn't it????
Cheers, Jim

Bill,
Thank you for your support. This is a subject that I feel strongly about. We collectively have so much information which at the moment is scattered worldwide.
Vlad is of course correct in pointing out that we are a drop in the ocean, nevertheless I believe that together we have a vast fund of knowledge that we can draw upon if we pool information.
I am absolutely impressed with the members of this forum, and the superb collections. I believe that between us we can discover and verify much new and hitherto unknown information. From what I have learned so far the super individual collections of Fed-1 alone among forum members must rank as some of the worlds best.
I personally have more than fifty fed-1's of all types, (unfortunately no Red Flag, and I'm envious of Aidas).
At present I am in Azerbaijan, but will return to my home in England a week from now. One of first things that I will do when I am home is to log all serial numbers and submit them.
Regards, Jim

Bill, Jim,

I apologize, I guess I just wasn't clear in my post. I was referring to your statement, Jim, when you started talking about how many percentages of cameras survived, that's what I meant about drop in the ocean.. it will be very hard to determine that from collecting serial numbers no matter how hard our efforts are...

...but the actual collection of serial numbers themselves is very important and I would strongly encourage this practice in the catalog, because it will establish very crucial patterns from which we can extrapolate a lot of useful historical information and correlated data...

It's just it will be very hard in the particular scenario that you described in determining, for example, how many Fotokors left out of original production by tracking serial numbers since the numbers would be all over the place and it won't really help any if we know of 20,000 numbers out of 2 million... that was what I meant..

Vlad

Vlad,
No need to apologise. You are of course correct in what you say, and I guess I explained myself very badly. We will never know the percentages of cameras that have survived until now, we can only guess, but with data we can make comparisons and collate various data in many ways.
I personally think that some patterns will emerge which as you point will provide some important historical information, whatever that may turn out to be.
Though we will never know survival percentages we can perhaps gain some idea of comparable survival rates between certain pieces of photo equipment. Extreme examples would be small bakelite or plastic cameras against more robust and expensive cameras. Let's say the Lillyput, Maliutka, and Shkolnik as compared to their contemporary metal bodied counterparts such as the Fed-1, Kiev IV, etc. Gaps in serial numbers could provide a rough guide. I know I'm over simplyfying things, but I'm sure you can see where I am going with this.
I also believe that certain items are much more rare than many people imagine. Fed accessories would fall into this category. In ten years of searching I found only one Fed mechanical self timer, and only two Fed selenium cell exposure meters. We won't know how many survive, but by logging these items and their serial numbers we can possibly gain further insight as to their scarcity as compared to each other, and other items.
I could go on and on, but I think I've said enough, and it's time I shut up!
Cheers, Jim

BTW, I've just thought of one anomoly concerning the Fed-1 which I think can quite easily be reconciled by logging relatively few camera serial numbers.
I don't have access at the moment to either my cameras, or to Princelle. What I wish to highlight in no way is a critism of Princelle, I think it is a fantastic work, but there are some innacuracies that should be addressed.
From my own relatively modest collection of Fed-1's it is strikingly apparent that the serial number limits as defined in Princelle as relative to Fed-1 types are not correct. For example the serial numbers in Princelle for the "Kombinat" variant if I remember correctly is off by several thousands. I'm sure that we could quite easily remedy such errors and obtain a much more accurate account of where variants start and finish.
Incidentally, I must apologise for repeatedly referring to the Fed-1, I do realise that there are many other Soviet camera's out there and indeed have quite a few of my own, but Oh how I love those Fed's!!!!!
Cheers, Jim

Oh, those Feds!!
Feds 1c end at 92-95000, not 125-130000 as said in the Princelle.
It was already said in another topic, if I'm right (by me?).

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello friends,

I would congratulate the idea to create a global database for soviet cameras and I'm ready to share all the information I possess personally!!!

Talking about serial numbers, I still remember our great discussion with Jacques about early Fed-1b cameras. While having information about particular cameras, we have determined the correct serial numbers range. That's why I absolutely agree with Jim's opinion - we need as much information, as we can collect ourselves...

Regards,
Aidas

Of course, I agree with enthusiasm!
We already began for some cameras, lenses and accessories in the WIKI. And as for matching Fed bodies/Fed lenses, we already have had a discussion about the serial numbers of S and 2/50. But it's a never ending story!

Amitiйs.
Jacques.

Jacques,
Thanks for the information, I don't have access to my copy of Princelle at the moment, and so couldn't be sure of the figures concerning the Fed 1c, but knew that it was quite a big difference.
So well done! You have obviously already done a lot of "digging" with regard to Fed-1's, the lenses, and accessories.
Congratulations on solving the puzzle for Olynek by matching his Fed-1 body and lens. I think that this perfectly illustrates how valuable serial numbers can be.
Regards, Jim

I agree that it's a "never ending story", and isn't that great! If we knew all the answers our hobby would not be nearly as interesting as it is. I also like the fact that as soon as one puzzle is solved, more questions pop up! and that's great too!
I think wer'e lucky to have a hobby with so many mysteries to solve. Collecting Japanese cameras wouldn't nearly so interesting.
Of course there will always be some questions that we can never answer, and puzzles that we cannot solve, but hey it's fun to try even if we sometimes fail!
I have seen and read with interest the postings concerning the Fed-S and f2/50. I know that some are already entered in the WIKI with accessories, etc. I have two Fed-S cameras and some Fed accessories including mechanical self timer and selenium exposure meter which I will enter into the WIKI as soon as I am home. I also have Fed lenses f6.3/100, f4.5/28 and others which I will also enter. I think that this way little by little we can build a clearer picture, provide more information to others with the same interests, and learn more about our own collections at the same time.
Regards, Jim

I have collected some serials from Kiev's in order to find out how many and when was produced.
Eg for Kiev-20:
83 0952 & 840529 & 841925 & 842675 & 843381 (22aug) & 845733 & 846084 & 846090 & 846232 & 846495 & 850044 & 850734 & 851142 & 851997 & 860760
So at least 83-86 but 84 being the highest year, at least 6.500 cameras. But my guess would be around 10.000 totally?
And Kiev-15TTL:
80-5179 80-9226 80-9176
So most likely only 1980

Smena rules

Juhani, add these into corresponding camera entries if you haven't already, these will get lost in the forums..

Vlad.

I will, with several others. First I have dull work to do a couple of days...
But to proof that the serials are useful I gave this example, also with the help from this group we may be able to make better conclusions.

Smena rules

Of course, thank you Juhani, real job comes first

Juhani,

I don't have many Kiev SLR's, just one or two I think, but I will happily enter them to the WIKI when I go home. I also have a few Kiev II, III, and IV, which I will enter, and also some Kiev mount lenses I can't remember exactly which ones, but I know they include early ZK Zorki.
These cameras and lenses have been stored in my roof space for the past few years which is the reason I can't remember what's there. Anyway it will be fun opening the boxes and re-discovering what I have!
Regards, Jim

The estimated production numbers for early Kievs and Kiev 5 vary a lot according to different sources, so s/ns could help us find out a number that is close to reality.:-)

Maybe it is not necessary to collect s/ns for those common models.

Cheers,

Zhang

Zhang,

I agree with what you say. In my opinion the main reason for recording serial numbers is to help us better understand more and to help fill in the gaps in our knowledge of certain cameras and photo equipment where little is already known or knowledge is missing. There are many, many examples where this is the case, and the serial numbers can collectively provide a lot of important information and data which as far as I know is not available anywhere else.

It would be a lot of work and a little pointless to collect and reproduce information about the common recent mass produced cameras which is no doubt already known and easily available from other sources. I guess this would apply, (with some exceptions) to most cameras and lenses from the late 1960's, early 1970's onwards, and would include among others the later Kiev/Contax copies.
Of course it would be nice to log everything including the more recent, but unfortunately not realistic. There are enough mysteries to solve with the ealier cameras and lenses to keep us busy for a long time!
Regards, Jim

And with KMZ it is easy to know how much was built and when as it is in factory website. Even Lomo has some numbers in their website, but Kiev remains as mystery, especially the less produced ones seem to get very different figures in the web.

Smena rules