Iskra-3 from Mirfoto Camera Book

Very good friend of mine Viktor Suglob have decided to spoil all his friends collectors with some unique material from the new book! Here we have an unique opportunity to see an ultra rare ISKRA-3 camera from private collection!!! (source: Mirfoto archives)

Thanks to Alain, we have heard about unknown Moskva-6 project already. Although the authentity of particular Moskva camera is very questionable untill now, the authentity of Iskra-3 camera is already confirmed by camera experts in Moscow and Minsk ...




Best Regards,
Aidas

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Originally posted by AidasCams

Here we have an unique opportunity to see an ultra rare ISKRA-3 camera from private collection!!! (source: Mirfoto archives)

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Only one is strange: the handles planes on the top plate are not parallel... Why?

Do you mean that top cover is slanted (верх скошенный)? You sure it's not optical illusion?

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Originally posted by Vlad

Do you mean that top cover is slanted (верх скошенный)?

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Or the film advance lever is warped...
Or this is a photomontage.

All other details is ideally realistic.

quote:

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Originally posted by Vlad

You sure it's not optical illusion?

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This is not an optical illusion.

hmmmmm,
what differences between this and an Iskra 2 ,(except label !)

Hi,

Indeed, I'm excluding the possibility of photomontage ... I have made this scan from regular photo 9x13. May be just wide angle lens were used by owner to photograph this beauty?

Regards,
Aidas

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Originally posted by mermoz37

hmmmmm,
what differences between this and an Iskra 2 ,(except label !)

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The cocking lever...
So: another transmission gear, another top cover.

quote:

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Originally posted by AidasCams

May be just wide angle lens were used by owner to photograph this beauty?

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No. Look at the release button ellipse.

Hello Aidas, Zoom and eveyone,

1. Just because the scan that Aidas made was from a paper photograph does not mean that the photograph was not doctored or a montage of several photos. Of course once a montage is made in photoshop, it can be printed into a paper photograph.

2. Zoom is very correct! The shape of the elipse of the shutter release button does not match the shape of the elipse of the film advance circular hub. However the release lever does match the shape of the rewind knob or hub.

3. The unusual shape of the film advance hub is unusual because it is in a place where there is a difference between the other Iskras (which don't have a wind lever ... just the hub or knob).

4. This whole area on the left side of the top looks a bit photo-shopped ... slightly fuzzy with less detail ... slightly different reflections and of different colors ... than the rest of the camera.

5. I think Zoom mentioned that the front edge of the top is not parallel with the long rectangular window on the front of the camera (viewfinder, meter, rangefinder window). I don't think this would be the case on a KMZ prototype, which would be very carefully made as far as these details go. Unless this uneveness of the top plate is part of the design (which would probably throw the accessory shoe into an unlevel position! Bad design.).

6. I know that Viktor has received many photographs from many collectors and dealers around the world. I have sent him some myself, as have many of us here on the forum. Of course Viktor has not been able to see all of these cameras himself, or to verify in person the authenticity of the cameras by personal inspection.

7. The biggest difference between this camera, ISKRA-3 and the other two is the shape of the top plate. Please look at the other two and compare to this one.

My own opinion is that this photo looks pretty weird, however it may be the way the ISKRA-3 actually looks and so I would not be ready to call it a fake, or even say the photo is for sure doctored. It would be helpful to actually see several photos of this particular camera from different angles before deciding.



Regards, Bill

Bill, Zoom,

regarding the photoshopping of this image (the photomontage as Zoom calls it), here's my 2 cents:

I've known Viktor to send out periodically some images of different rare cameras.. What I've seen him do on purpose was to either overexpose shots or modify them somehow to identify the origin of the photograph. The Iskra-3 logo looks blurred out and graphically stylized to me, but if you ever seen Viktor's art, that's how it looks like exactly.. so my guess it he made the picture look odd just to identify it if it is ever in public rotation and to prevent in some degree illegal republishing it in other publications because it can easily be traced back to original owner. It's like watermarking to some degree...

Regarding the top being slanted, it is possible that the frame is crooked since it's just inserted into a molded metal top and can shift if not tightened, rather than top housing being actually angled which is improbable... That is what I mean by optical illusion, it looks like top is crooked, but I think it's actually frame and it's hard to see it because of the slight angled nature of the shot... ]

Vlad

quote:

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Originally posted by Vlad

so my guess it he made the picture look odd just to identify it if it is ever in public rotation and to prevent in some degree illegal republishing it in other publications because it can easily be traced back to original owner. It's like watermarking to some degree...

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An "illegal republishing" like this?
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/iskra/index.html#iskra-3
;)

Hi Vlad,

So you think he actually took a photo of a separate advance knob at a different angle and then took the actual advance knob away from the image so that he could replace it with one at a different angle?

The viewfinder frame does not look crooked. Look how it lines up with the top plate at the bottom edge (both the frame and the top plate edge). Only the top edge of the top plate is crooked when compared to the top edge of the frame.

This photograph does not have the other distortions that you would see if it was taken with a wide angle lens.

So .... good idea to distort pictures so they can' be used without detection ... I think I will go back and distort all of the photos of cameras that I put in the WIKI ;-) ... you know ... twist them up a bit. No, all kidding aside, I think the serial number on the lens and the fact that there are no other ISKRA-3 photos around would prove that this is Vicktor's photo without him having to change it.

Regards, Bill

Zoom, I think with proper credit to him, you're fine ..

Bill, I guess with advance lever, I still don't see what the issue is... are you talking about the lever itself, that it's half-way cocked? Or are you talking about the housing in from of the lever wheel warped up a little? That maybe that is was damaged against something? I'm not saying he photoshopped the lever on top, I'm just saying the blur around the logo is characteristic to Viktor's photography...

And with angle from top like that it's hard for me to say whether the bottom of the rangefinder frame is aligned correctly or not...
Vlad

Vlad,
The advance lever has a round hub. When things are photographed from an angle, rather than from straight above, this round hub has the appearance of an oval because of the angle. Any other round objects that are on the same plane (such as the release button or rewind knob) will have the same shape oval if in the same photo. So, what I am talking about (and I think Zoom too) is that the shape of the ovals of the round part of the winding lever (hub part) is a different shape of oval than the release button and the rewind knob. So the hub or round part of the film advance lever looks like it is tilted towards us, the viewer.

Beside a doctored or photoshopped image, this can be due to two things ... the rewind lever is attached crookedly, not flat against the top plate ... or ... the top plate has a tilt towards the viewer, either as part of the design or from a bent top plate. So the way it looks, if a person was to wind the film to the next frame, the end of the lever where the thumb goes would travel up, as well as to the right, as the film was advanced.

You can actually measure, on the photo itself, the height of the top plate on the right side and on the left side, and you can see the difference in height on either side. So, maybe this is the design as it was meant to be, or a mistake in manufacturing (since the top plate is the main difference between this camera and the ISKRA-2) ... or it is a doctored photograph.

No doubt if someone made a doctored photograph, sent it to Vicktor, and it was published in the book as the ISKRA-3 Prototype, it would then be very profitable to then make up a few of these and sell them for a big price.

On the other hand, maybe it is the real prototype and the photo just looks weird for some reason. All I'm really saying is that because the photo looks so weird in several ways, I would not want to decide that it was the authentic ISKRA-3 unless I had more evidence, either more photos, documentary evidence, or a definitive statement by someone who actually saw the camera and was able to examine it in a detailed way. Nice if it's the real one, but as we all know, there are many fakes and misleading examples in our field of collecting and interest.


Regards, Bill

Hi, I'm with Bill & Zoom on this. Just my 2 cents worth but you can see that the top plate at both ends has steps the height of the knobs/lever. However, the back line of the lower step near the wind on lever meets the back line of the highest part of the top plate. Look at the right hand end near the knob - it drops away to the bottom step as you would expect.

In real life, this can only happen two ways; if the lower step is angled as a wedge so that the back edge of the lower step is actually level with the higher part of the top plate (ie they merge into one level)or the lower part of the step on which the lever sits is significntly wider than the top part of the top plate ie there is a platform that extends behind the camera. Either possibility is not very likely in my opinion. In fact, I think this is rather poor manipulation.
Regards,
Paul

Hi!
If it is interesting with what of camera the photo of the "another transmission gear" and "another top cover" could be taken, look "Seagull 203" of the Chinese manufacture
dmzi

dmzi,

You are right. Both the Shanghai 203 and the Seagull 203 have the same exact shape top plate. The Shanghai 203 has the larger-sized film advance knob (also with a lever). But there is a difference in the shape of the cut-out window next to the rewind knob, on the top plate. Very interesting.

Maybe possibilities can be that:
1. this is a photomontage of Shanghai - Seagull and Iskra-2.
2. this is a fake made from Iskra-2 and Shanghai - Seagull
3. the real Iskra-3 prototype ... and somehow the Chinese got an example of the prototype to copy the top plate and wind lever design (not too likely in my opinion).
4. the real Iskra-3 prototype ... and KMZ decided to copy the Shanghai - Seagull design (also not too likely in my opinion)

Almost no possibilities that the Shanghai - Seagull 203s and the Iskra-3 prototype have nothing to do with each other and were just indepentently designed the same by accident. So I am thinking this is either a photomontage or a fake ... but still not 100% sure.

Regards, Bill

Hi,

thanks for you comments indeed! Just half an hour ago I was talking with Viktor Suglob and have told him all the suspicious about the particular camera. After the close examination of Iskra-3 photo, Viktor is ready to agree with Zoom's and Bill's opinion. He asked me to tell you the true story about these cameras ...

Viktor have received these cameras from anonym person in Moscow. The man, called Igor, refused to meet with Viktor, even refused to say his surname indeed ... He gave to Viktor photos of 70 cameras, which he possess recently. It's known, that Igor's father was a KMZ worker, who have assembled the collection of appr. 200 rarest KMZ cameras. Just few years ago (5-7) Igor have decided to sell the part of this unique collection. Unfortunately her was hurt very bloody and "the buyer" took 100 his cameras away ... Since then, it's impossible to find a contact with him.

Viktor does not think, that photomontage is possible, while these cameras were not for sale, but who knows ... He's almost sure, that particular Iskra-3 was made by creative KMZ workers inside the factory. No documents about Iskra-3 untill now (may be Zoom knows ...), so we could consider Iskra-3 as the some kind of "fantasy" camera indeed.

Best Regards,
Aidas

Hello people!
This Iskra 3 seems to be authentic. It is not a fake. may be a single unit made somewhat like the Zorki 35M. in a beautiful This camera has nothing to do with Seagull once the lever is really different from chinese Segull and Hong-Mei. Iskra has a larger body. This unit however seems to have no automatic frame counter.
Iskra cameras are based upon Agfa Super Isolette while Chinese are based on smaller bodied Agfa Isolette cameras.
Chinese cameras have no autostop but a clever interesting lever advance: All of them uses double format, so, from the number 1 on film back, two strokes on the lever advance 4.5x6 and three strokes 6x6 frame.
LP

Hello Aidas,

Thanks for the story and opinion from Viktor about the origins and what he knows about it. It sounds a bit unusual that Igor would want to be so anonymous in every way. Possibly this story is true, however it sounds strange and could also just be a story given for some other reason. For example, if it is known that Igor's father was a KMZ worker, then it must be known who this KMZ worker was ... unless that is just what Igor has said...
I am not in Viktor's position, but if I had all these photos from Igor and was planning to use them in a book, I would examine all of them very carefully to see if others had details that looked unusual or if the photographs themselves had things that looked like they may have been doctored, etc.

Regards, Bill

Hi Luiz,
Thanks for that information about the Agfa cameras and the differences. Very helpful. Could be that Iskra-3 is authentic prototype, or maybe just a workers project. Zorki-35M has at least 4 examples made and it is known who the designer is also. Maybe more information will turn up about the Iskra-3.

Regards, Bill