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Sputnik 2 (again)

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04/15/2009 19:17

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Hi David - RCCCUK,

Thanks for adding this SPUTNIK-2 to the WIKI catalog. I have one of these cameras and so does Alain Berry and we have had a discussion about them and whether or not they may be authentic (from the factory) or not. Although I have not reached a final conclusion about that issue, it is an interesting subject and here is a link to that prior discussion on the forum:

http://www.ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=179

I will dig mine out (still in it's somewhat disassembled state) and take another look at it. One of my posts in the prior discussion has a link to a page I made with close-up photos of some of the parts.

Your own opinion and any more information you may have about the camera would be highly valued.


Regards, Bill

04/16/2009 05:12

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hi friends,
for me no problem : they are fakes.
So , remember Bill : I make another one in the past easily. (Tom, you can easily withdraw the crowns engraved around the lenses and to take off the frontal plate, which is only stichen--fake rivets--, you will see they are acid engraved in magnesium plates, whith printers plates process!!!

just one mystery : from what camera buttons are take away (not Lubitel 166, because no arrows on) ???

but it is possible I am in the wrong way....Smile

04/16/2009 08:34

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Hi Bill,

Thanks for the reference to the previous discussion on the forum. It is all facinating stuff. There is really very little that I can add. I notice that my Sputnik-2 has the same film spool retaining knobs as the original Sputnik. I bought mine from a friend in Moscow, who fakes cameras himself. He did not fake this one, and believes it to be genuine, although cannot authenticate it. I can see both sides of the argument from all the previous correspondence. It just seems to me to be a lot of effort to create this particular forgery, when simpler changes could have been made to the same ends. Has anyone tried to get any information out of LOMO? I have written to them in the past on behalf of the RCCC, but I have never had a response.

David.

04/16/2009 21:24

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I agree that this particular version of the Sputnik-2 is probably a fake. Aside from the fact that all examples seem to have been bought from Moscowphoto (who, as Vlad says, had our fantasy Special Editions made), what really convinced me that these were not authentic is that they seem to be made from old bodies of Sputniks of different time periods rather than the last group of production in the mid 1970s. This became obvious to me when I looked closely at the inner body details of my example and photos of Alain's camera which he sent to me.

If they had been authentic trial models made by LOMO then it would have been to try to sell unsold cameras from the 1970s overseas by changing them as far as name and look are concerned. So unless some type of convincing evidence to the contrary appears, such as literature, manuals, passports, boxes, etc., I consider them to be fakes as well.

Regards, Bill

04/17/2009 02:25

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Many thanks to everyone. I'm glad that my inclusion of my Sputnik-2 raised the discussion again. I think we are now all agreed that this camera is a clever fake. I have to admit that I will continue to include some fakes in my collection as I believe they also add something to the Soviet and post-Soviet photographic story.

David.

04/17/2009 10:13

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hi Tom,
just an idea : please do as I did : place gently a cutter blade between the body and front plate : the front plate is only glued whith epoxyde . the front plate will fall down on your table . Then got a magnet and verifye it is not something like steel or nickel .In your hand you will be surprised the plate is lightweight and the back is green or maron : it came from printers process.
so I can show you pictures (Bill known in the past) when I make some fakes plate in my friend's atelier (they are specialists in printer frames , made in zinc , magnesium, or polyester plates to print luxury book) this is very easy and cheap.
so , you can easily remove front lenses plates (just uncrew front ring ) whithout damages : these plates are not at all glued. you will see the same back, weight and process)

Whith a lupe before all , look close at the edges of letters: they are not orthogonal (straight hedges) as usualy if normal embossed like Lubitel's plates, but gently sloping : that is prove letters are hollowed by acid (nitrogen) process. You never saw such a process on any soviets cameras.

follow : a well known document about sputnick 2 project.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/Sputnik-2.jpg

04/17/2009 21:38

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I think that the photo from the booklet that Aidas has shown is possibly the authentic Sputnik-2 and is also the same camera shown in Princelle's. There are certain differences between that camera and the examples in question recently.

The viewing hood on the original (shown in the leaflet & Princelle's)) seems to be the same as the viewing hood shown on the rare NEVA twin lens reflex. Also, the lenses are supposed to be "T-35" according to Princelle.

The winding knob is the same on both types (also seems the same as on a Lubitel-166), but the rewind knob on the early example is different.

The logo looks to be silk-screened or printed onto the camera surface on the early one and of course has a name plate on the ones recently sold.

Kosomelets does seem to have similar raised letters (speed numbers and GOMZ Logo) on the lens plate, but I don't have a Komsomolets to compare with.

If these cameras had come from a different seller (because he sell a lot of fakes and obviously knows engineers as seen by our Special Edition camera) then I would have to consider that sometimes a company will make a small number of a cameras in a non-usual production technique (such as glueing a name plate on or using printing factory technology to make a nice lens plate) for use as display models for an exhibition such as Photokina, etc. Of course they would be made differently if put into production on a permanent series. This is very much the case with the FED-6TTL which only about 10 were made and some are almost complete dummy cameras while others are more fully realized.

Also it is not so odd for one seller to have access to a number of cameras, even rare ones, if they have a contact with someone at the factory or a former factory worker. This is how the FED-6TTL cameras cmae out into the market and I myself have also bought a number of rare GOI prototype lenses all from one supplier. All are authentic and all were from one source to the seller (probably). The FED-6TTL also has no boxes, manuals, etc.

So to me, the biggest problem for me is that this seller of the new Sputnik-2 cameras is known for selling very nice fakes. So with seller involved I can only say 10% chance these new ones are authentic factory display models. If they had been from a different seller maybe 30% chance.

Bill

Regards, Bill

04/19/2009 16:11

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These Amator cameras are not fakes. If fakes, you should know that there were announced in the Minicam Photographic magazine in 1947! as post war descoveries.
They also changed the name of the original Moskva to be sold in USA without any mention of the origin. Another interesting thing was that at that era there was an American manufacturer that offered a BC flash gun specially built for FEDs.
It was also true that Aeroflot had regular flights to Sweden from 1946, and business were active. Those cameras were also sold there as Pobiedas and Volgas. These last ones directly applied in taxi services with Igenor Sweden diesel engines.
regard LP

04/19/2009 20:53

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Yes Luiz, we know that the Amator cameras are a real model ... the question is whether the one that Alain is showwing in the photos above are fakes. I was saying that maybe they are because the name plates are attached with screws instead of rivets like the ones in your photos!

Regards, Bill

04/19/2009 23:23

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quote:
Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo

Those cameras were also sold there as Pobiedas and Volgas. These last ones directly applied in taxi services with Igenor Sweden diesel engines.

Totally wrong!!!!!!

GAZ-cars (not cameras) were not sold in Sweden, but in Finland, as we were not rich after WWII and our major export was wood and ships to USSR. USSR had no money so we got cars and much more. Bilateral trade, not free capitalism.

The diesel was french (not swedish) Indenor, also used by Peugeot. And not in old Popeda but in Volga. In the times of Volga it was no longer a popular taxi car, as western cars were also available. Only the old communists (dinosaurs) wanted Volga...

Best regards,
Juhani

04/20/2009 05:30

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nobody won the bottle Big smileBig smileBig smile !!!

the first one is a fake ! I did it myself when I bought -and suspect- Sputnick II, and quickly discovered how to do....
So I meet a friend which had experience in printer plate and then we decided to make the same !!! (look at the types and spaces between...gently differents from originals -luiz pictures- )
after what, I make a second plate "amator II" :


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/amator II. plaque jpg.jpg

it was very hard to find the same fonts (we had to re-design some of them , from a standard "Swedish" alphabet)
we used nitrogen acid on Zinc plates as for printers. then we polished this plate (soft shinning like aluminium)and varnished (spray)
If we used magnesium , the plate will be thinner and would look like better some aluminium.
Hard too, was to found roundish screws. ( truth is "Amator 1" screws are square /round and "Amator 2" rounded )
(note : the second picture "amator", I sent, came from Sweden and really correct whith original screws.)

Now I have to dig somewhere a Lubitel 2 and put my Amator ii plate to show another fake TongueApproveTongueApprove

So , why I did it as a collector ?
: only to prove how easy and cheap is to make "new" camera design whith this process (if you stay plates long time in acid you can control whith a chronometer the deep of emboss and even cut staight the plates (so the round wshers arround the lenses:
- first time you emboss the types (after drawing on a Mac) then you protect these types whith a varnish ,
at least , you put again in acid , to cut straight the round washers edges).

once again , when you have some doubts about such cameras : take a lupe and look closely at the types or drawing hedge : in that case they are 30° to 45° sloping , never perpendicular, as obtain in emboss process.

I hope the process clear for all , in spite of my so bad translation...Smile

your friend,
Alain
(Hips !...................sorry I drink all the bottle , lonelyClown)

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