A German shutter inside a 1951 Kiev II camera ?

Hi,

Just bought a non working 1951 Kiev II for repair. Here's two pictures of the shutter. Still German parts inside ?
The camera look like a new one. The ribbons show no wear !

off-topic

here's what I found inside another non working camera

Hi,
there is nothing unusual. So far as I know, German parts were used in Kievs till 1952.

Regards, Alexander

Yes, some German parts were used late on Kievs, for example DIN lightmeters untill 1952 or 1953 for Kiev III.

But I doubt for the shutters. Anyway, it's very difficult to be affirmative. Dresden parts were (of course!) German. But what can we say about Jena ones, in the 1945/47 years? Made by German and Russian people, and looking exactly like the parts which will be made in Kiev... with the German machine tools.

I have seen somewhere an article about the differences between the texture and the glue of German vs Russian shutters. I try to find it again.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Ha, I have found:
http://www.zeisscamera.com/articles_blackhole.shtml

An article by Henry Scherer, well known repairman of Contaxes.

There are very interesting details about internal differences between Contaxes and early Kievs. And a curious manner to speak of the German production (capital G) and of the russian one (always small r).

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello,

Here's the part that makes me think it's a German shutter :



Here's a Kiev shutter :

Here's the camera :

Hi, a good way to check if this is a Zeiss shutter is to look for a black leather strip on the lower shutter roller - generally this indicates Zeiss shutter blinds. The gear design which you highlight was a Zeiss pattern, the Russians simplified the design later, possibly when the production line was re-tooled.

Cheers,

Steve

Hi Steve,

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. I need to learn more

Here's a picture of the lower shutter roller from that camera :

The Kiev II s/n is 511190
I also own a Kiev III s/n A511469. The Kiev III shutter has the simplified gear (!) and the same lower shutter roller.

Many thanks, Jed and Steve, for all these details I was not aware of.
Is there a manner to know if these Contax parts come from Dresden or Jena, or simply were made in Kiev on the German machine tools?

You have convinced me, Jed: I will have a look at the Inside of my early Kievs to know what they hide!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Jacques,
I'm afraid I will NOT dare to dismantle my 48, 49, 50, 51, A51 Kievs to check the shutters !
Amicalement,
M.

OK, so a quick history lesson. The Soviet's had to get Zeiss Jena to reverse engineer much of the Jena Contax II from surviving parts, i.e. produce new drawings and masters from which to cast/machine new parts. Due to material shortages and loss of original machine tools, many parts varied in design from the original Contax. That said, there were large quantities of unused Zeiss Ikon components, and these were used initially to make the Kiev cameras. Hence the chrome fronts with 'CONTAX' rolled out, and KNEB hand engraved over the top. Contax blinds of a certain pattern will fit the Kiev, as will some gear sets, winding mechanism components, light baffles etc. Contax parts gradually ran out - you will find significant numbers of Zeiss parts in 1947 - 1949 cameras, then slowly they are superceded by Arsenal manufactured parts into 1950/51. Note that, for the Kiev III, early cameras had Zeiss meters and meter scales in degrees DIN. I do take some of what Henry S. says with a pinch of salt - I have worked on some dreadful Contaxes and some very fine Kiev's, particularly from the 1950's.

Cheers,

Steve

Forgot to mention - your camera looks to have Kiev blinds from the appearance of the lifting heal - it looks like hard felt rather than leather.

Steve

And I can see from looking at the picture of your 1951 Kiev II it looks to have a Zeiss shutter. The giveaway is the lack of the cast blind stop on the bottom left of the shutter housing - I suspect the blind itself has a brass extension on the left which hits against the inside of the film frame (which screws to the body)??

Steve

Hello Steve,

Some close up pictures added. Don't know if it meets your assumption. Please tell me.








Here's the 1951 Kiev III
(lower shutter roller looks like the same as the one inside the II)

Hi, the pictures you posted show a Kiev shutter assembly, however the ones of the non-working camera (Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 03:38:02 AM) I beleive show a Zeiss shutter. The cast blind stop shown on the second of the above pictures is not present, Zeiss eventually changed the design to the Kiev type as the brass pin which hit against the bottom of the film gate was prone to bending, causing issues with the latching of the shutter blinds. Out of interest, is the meter scale on your Kiev III marked in DIN or GOST?

Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by SteveA

Hi, the pictures you posted show a Kiev shutter assembly, however the ones of the non-working camera (Posted - Sep 13 2014 : 03:38:02 AM) I beleive show a Zeiss shutter. T

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Steve,
You're right - I forgot to mention the camera is a Contax II (s/n starts with "E")

quote:

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Out of interest, is the meter scale on your Kiev III marked in DIN or GOST?

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The meter is marked in DIN :



May I ask you another question ?

Here's a back from a military Contax III, have you ever seen this before ?

Many thanks - so your Kiev III has Zeiss metering components, at least the meter scale is Zeiss Ikon and perhaps the meter itself. I've not seen that tripod mount before but I suspect it was modified to be more robust/give greater stability. With the Contax IIa/IIIa Zeiss moved the mount thread to the camera body rather than the back, which improved the robustness of the mount.

Cheers,

Steve

Steve,

The lack of that part may be an issue (light leak) - surprisingly it misses most of the cameras I've opened, even Contaxes.

Yes that little light baffle is critical - it was not fitted to the very earliest Contaxes (these also did not have the round baffle which slides into the front of the main black baffle which covers the shutter curtains). It is so flimsy it soon gets damaged or lost. A small piece of black tape can be used across the join between the main body and film gate if the little baffle is missing.
There should also be paper baffling over the top of the shutter, between the chassis and body.

Steve