A curious Leica fake...

Hello,

I have just bought this camera.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19112014_leica fake 1.jpg
(Leicashop's photo)

Most of the fakes are made from Feds or Zorkis. I am not sure it is the case here...
The screws on the upper plate and on the front of the belt , the metallurgy of the cover, specially about the viewer, the shape and the vertical stripes of the buttons, all is different.

But what if not a Fed? The condition of the chrome means the camera is probably prewar (and that the chrome was not good!). Note that the serial number is at the beginning of the Leica II Couplex series (s/n 71200).

A mix of several parts? But coming from where? A trial? This camera remembers something to me, but what?

Thanks for your opinion!

Jacques.

Hello Jacques!
It seems to be a japanese prewar cвmera.
At same time due the rewind buttom the cвmera seems to have a somewhat larger length . Please confirm.
The image finder constructiun apperas to be from the first Leotax Items perhaps.
I will study the image.
Can You send more ones?
Best Regards
LP

See this interesting Neuca Prototype
http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Neubert-Franz/Neuca-Prototype-(black).html

LP

a similar system is found in Leica IIf second series
LP


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19112014_leica IIf.png

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.


Most of the fakes are made from Feds or Zorkis. I am not sure it is the case here...
The screws on the upper plate and on the front of the belt , the metallurgy of the cover, specially about the viewer, the shape and the vertical stripes of the buttons, all is different.

But what if not a Fed? The condition of the chrome means the camera is probably prewar (and that the chrome was not good!). Note that the serial number is at the beginning of the Leica II Couplex series (s/n 71200).

A mix of several parts? But coming from where? A trial? This camera remembers something to me, but what?

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Very interesting. I remember I saw screws on the sides before but forgot where. Jacques, how could you find this camera, please post a photo without the bottom-plate when you have it.

It doesn't make much sense to fake a Leica from a camera other than Feds or Zorkis. Those other cameras might be worth even more, like Reids and Kardons.

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19112014_leica fake 4.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19112014_leica fake 3.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/19112014_leica fake 2.jpg

Thanks for your answers, Luiz! Now, you have all the images.
I will have the camera next week, I think.

Several things surprise me:
- the rewind button is thick, as on a Leica 1 (A). So, a camera which would have been without rangefinder in a previous life?
- in that case, the cover will be less wide than a Fed's or a Leica 2's (which have narrow rewind buttons). I will check when I have it. And I will take all the measurements.
- the cover itself seems less high than a Fed's.
- the screws on the corners belong to Leica 1 (A) too.
- the 2 upper screws which maintain the shutter box are lower than on Feds or Leicas. So, the shutter box would be different from a Fed's.

Frankly, I had not thought of the Japanese track... I am going to study your link, Luiz. As for the Leicas IIf and IIIf, they are indeed a bit larger, but they have another metallurgy (and the cover is not detachable). The seller thinks it is a FSU production.

And of course, I will open it as soon as I have it, Lenny. Sure, it will answer some questions.

I go on seeking!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Fantastique Jacques!
Bien sur! Les oculaires sont decisivement fort diferentes de la Leica!
Ils peutent d'etre rйminiscences de la RARISSIME SAGEM!
de construction Franзaise de 1942!
pre-pre-production model
Only speculations....
Regards
LP

What about posting in ENGLISH PLEASE!

Best regards,
Juhani

Sorry Juhani. It must be enthusiasm!
Luiz says:
"Fantastic! Of course! The viewer is very different from the Leica's. It can be a reminiscence of the rarissime Sagem, a French camera made in 1942. Perhaps a pre-pre production model. Only speculations..."

As for me, I already saw Sagem's images. Genuine ones, not Russian copies! But I am unable to find them again on the net. If you have that...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hello Jacques

Even McKeown's don't know nothing about this camera called Sagem, but I found some pictures of of it in the book "300 Leica copies" from Patrice-Herve Pont and Jean-Loup Princelle (FotoSaga, 1990). As I can see your camera is not a Sagem.

By the way yesterday I took a look at all the cameras in this book and could not find a camera with such a frame around the viewfinder. Strange camera ...

Best wishes - Guido

"300 Leica copies"... Just the book I don't have.
Thanks, Guido, for your researches.
When I have the camera, I will dismount the body. Sure we will know more after.

But if you have any ideas, don't hesitate!

As for the lens, it could be an early Fed by the fine knurling of the crown. But the outer front brass ring (to maintain the lenses) seems thicker than a Fed's.

I love these cameras which put questions!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

quote:

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Originally posted by Guido


the book "300 Leica copies" from Patrice-Herve Pont and Jean-Loup Princelle

By the way yesterday I took a look at all the cameras in this book and could not find a camera with such a frame around the viewfinder. Strange camera ...

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Yes, very strange. But it can't be in the book if it's a real Leica. Imagine Leicashop couldn't recognize that it's a Leica and sold it to Jacques for let's say 250 euro and Jacques will sell it later for 50 thousand euro. Maybe Jacques is already getting offers. How is the asking price at this moment Jacques?

Just checked the FAG on fotoua.com, there are some similarities and only 50 pieces were produced. Who says those 50 were all the same.

Yes, Lenny, I had a look at fotoua.com and on the site of Alexey Nikitin too (What marvels!).
Of course, there are similarities with Fag and VOOMP. But there are too similarities with any of the 35mm rangefinder Leica like cameras of this time. Normal: when a technical solution is chosen, generally, there are not many ways...

In fact, it would be necessary to have convergences at least on two details:
- the position of the screws on the front of the camera, which specifies the type of shutter box Inside (the heart of the camera!)
- the two main buttons I had never seen.

The cover is very interesting too. But it could be a special work for a camera previously without rangefinder: many Leica I were converted into II in 1932...

Factory or home made? It's the question...

Merci! Jacques.

Some time ago there was sold a fake sagem from a Zorki cвmera.
but this could be a pre-run Sagem.
Around the years 1960 When at University a friend of mine brought a strange "Leica" that was bought by his father in the War days.
This Fake "Leica" was in the worst possible condition and was desintegrating itself.
It seemed to me was made in Zamak and its leather was getting in powder.
I do not know where this cвmera was from. there were much speculations.

Engravings on frame counter and speed dial Should be a way to get
its origins

Similar screw on rangefinder (Leitz Museum)

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/20112014_tanack IV-S.png

Thanks for your photos, Luiz.
The camera which was desintegrating itself, as you say, could have been a Foca 2 stars. The first series were made in Zamac...

But this one is visibly made of chrome plated brass. Not very good: it remembers me the first trials of chromed Leica II, and the wartime IIIf...

You are right: the engraving on the frame counter and the speed dial are important too. The pins on the frame counter are between 10-15 and 30-35. Like the Fag! It's different on Leica/Zorki and Feds.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

So I just took some measurements from my screen. I know that this is not very accurate,
but I can say that
1. this body is same wide as a Leica-II and
2. the top here is not as wide as on a Leica-II,
this explains why a wider rewind button is possible.
I'm not an Leica expert, I don't know if there were different tops, but I would guess Leica had only one size for their rangefinder housing.

Lots of questions!
But the cвmera was not a Foca the shape was a leica and had its screw threaded lenses.
Regards
LP

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.


You are right: the engraving on the frame counter and the speed dial are important too. The pins on the frame counter are between 10-15 and 30-35. Like the Fag! It's different on Leica/Zorki and Feds.

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What happened to the FAG factory. If I remember correctly they were in competition with FED and lost. What did FAG produce later?