Fed-Arsenal

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

we don't know which materials were available for these cameras. Certainly, the Arsenal guys used what they had. So, to declare this camera is a fake would be a bit short. For the moment, we just have to compile...

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Thanks Jacques,

of course we can't be sure about the history of every single camera, but some things are very unlikely. Important is only how the Fed and Arsenal factories produced cameras.
Fed got an ordered plan to produce thousands of cameras every year. They didn't get an order to produce spare parts and they were not ordered to repair cameras. So keeping plates with 3 holes under the rewind knob makes less sense. To fulfill the plan and to use all produced parts they might have used up all 1c parts in the transition from 1c to 1d.
Arsenal might have had lots of 1e parts. They might have started production with these 1e parts. To produce #00022 so early with a different technic from 1c makes less sense when there were enough 1e parts available. And it seems Arsenal got an ordered plan too, to produce the first 100 cameras fast. This #00022 with 3 screws makes no sense and Arsenal didn't had mass production at that time. These FED-Arsenal were pretty much produced consecutive to their serial numbers.
In a workshop it's totally different, their job was to repair cameras and they likely used parts from other broken cameras.

Hi Bill and Vlad!

Yes, it's probably just to put a late 1e. It seems that a number of these Fed-Arsenal were made from parts coming from that series. Anyway, I don't see anything special about that one, except, of course, the plaque.

Something else. It seems that certain late Fed 1e don't have the regular 3,5/50mm Fed lens. I own one of them with a bayonet Sonnar 1,5/5cm cautiously adapted on a Fed rear crown. There is another one in the wiki. And a third one on a Fed-Arsenal (the s/n 00050) shown in the article. Aftermarket adaptation, or lack of lenses at that time? Could there be a correlation with the use of 1948 Industar 22 on most of these cameras?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

A word more about that question of lenses.
By our wiki, and for the 1e-s, the s/n of lenses is always under the body's ones, with just one exception.

Generally, it's just the contrary.
That could lead too towards a lack of lenses for the 1e-s and the Fed-Arsenal.

Jacques.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

A word more about that question of lenses.
By our wiki, and for the 1e-s, the s/n of lenses is always under the body's ones, with just one exception.

Generally, it's just the contrary.
That could lead too towards a lack of lenses for the 1e-s and the Fed-Arsenal.

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The serials for 50/3.5 should be much lower because of FED S which were fitted with 50/2.0 Taylor-Hobson clones.

The lack of lenses for FED-Arsenal might be because they were not able to produce lenses.
That shows what a great factory FED was before the war.

We don't know how many Fed-Arsenal were made, nor in which conditions, nor exactly with which parts. But we have already decided that the s/n 00022 is a fake! If I had been a guy of Arsenal and found a complete 1c in a chest, I would have used it first!

And we forget too that normal rules of production cannot be applied to this period of recovery. For example, the two "1 turn" lenses that we find on the s/n 00127 and 00216 are curious. It seems that parts in the chests were not only from 1e-s.

Note that I have not said that this camera is genuine: for the moment, it's just impossible to know. But I discuss for peanuts: all the series is in the "contested or unauthentified" section!

Jacques.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

But we have already decided that the s/n 00022 is a fake!

And we forget too that normal rules of production cannot be applied to this period of recovery. For example, the two "1 turn" lenses that we find on the s/n 00127 and 00216 are curious.

Note that I have not said that this camera is genuine: for the moment, it's just impossible to know. But I discuss for peanuts: all the series is in the "contested or unauthentified" section!

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"WE" decided nothing.
Vlad and Bill decided to put it in the contested section.
I decide every day new how I think about certain cameras. Every day I evaluate new and if I get new information I might come to new conclusions. But for now #00022 is not original to me. Could be that the top plate is original and was assembled on a broken 1c camera, who knows, but still the whole camera would not be original then. Elnur asked and I gave my opinion.

And for peanuts sake, these are cameras with interchangeable lenses. If you know you have a fake camera, it is nice to put a 1-turn lens on it to make it look famous.
For example, Fed-1a #155. We all know it was sold WITHOUT lens. Suddenly this #155 has a separate entry here in the wiki WITH lens and it is not even mentioned that it is not the original lens.
Camera/lens combinations are mostly worth peanuts, only passports might give a hint.

Yes, of course! Very funny, indeed!
We put a 1 turn Fed lens (unfindable) on a Fed-Arsenal, unfindable too! All that to fake. Certainly, we are joking...
Don't you feel "we" are ridiculous ?

And every day , you decide to re-evaluate the wiki, by yourself, if I understand correctly? Once more time, I ask the question: who are you to do so? Could you give us a sign showing that you are a collector rather than a troll?

About the Fed s/n 155, certainly it's not the subject, or I am wrong, once more? Perhaps you should open a new thread?

And please, don't use capital letters. Between us, though old, I am not deaf

Jacques.

The entry for FED-Arsenal was moved from the "Modified and Fantasy Cameras" section to the "Unidentified / Contested Authenticity" section. This is a step up for the FED-Arsenal ... from "Fantasy" to "Contested Authenticity". No doubt when and if there becomes documentary is proof that these cameras are the ones that were actually made by Arsenal, then they will be moved to another category. I would also ask Lenny who he is, and where he lives (just which country - no one will get his address to take his cameras) and to volunteer some information about his collection or experience. We have all done so over the years and have not been robbed because of it. Just sharing information with some other interested friends.

Regards, Bill

Sorry for a delayed reply. Regarding the picture of the FED that I posted earlier with a initials cover, here's what the caption says and I'm not sure how accurate that is but it's a very interesting statement:

FED-Arsenal" with an "Berdsk" [1e] engraving "FED №183569."
The camera body was designed for model "B". [note the covered slow dial hole]
Hole exists for 1\1000 in speed dial disk.
All of the features characteristic of the species of Kiev's FED Arsenal except panel and lens are available.
Here, the cover assembly is not sandblasted chrome and just grinded - noticeable on the surface of the cover.
It seems that they just did not have sandblaster.
Another feature - the shutter spring - pink colorб unpainted.
Chromed panel - without nickel substrate.


The description of this camera looked peculiar to me that it may have a been a leftover parts camera that was partially assembled in Berdsk as FED-B with leftover 1e cover.. and later Arsenal got same kind of camera body leftovers to do FED-Arsenal? This story has too many confusing unknowns that is why FED-Arsenal is going to sit in "contested" category until there is a undisputable passport or documentation for a specific camera.

And to add to what Bill wrote, Lenny, there is a tradition on this forum to make a separate post introducing yourself, telling us a little bit about yourself, what you collect, how long, a little bit about your collection. Given your heavy participation I'm sure a lot of long time members are interested of who is the "mysterious" Lenny . It would be great if you do such a post. I promise I will not send robbers to your house while you're a member of this forum

Best regards,
Vlad

Thanks for the translation, Vlad.
The photo of this Fed 1e is too bad to see correctly the spring and what is around it. However, we can see that the speed dial and the frame counter are of the Fed-Arsenal type...

The photo of the Fed-Arsenal s/n 00043 is much interesting. It shows extra holes for the screws of the slow speed spring and the connection towards the selector. It corresponds to those which can be observed on the Fed "B".


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/762016_fed arsenal s-n 43.png

This Fed-Arsenal s/n 00043 could have been a Fed "B" in a better life... Note that these extra holes don't exist on any of my own Fed 1-s, nor my Fed-Arsenal s/n 00067.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Two of the lenses on these Fed-Arsenal are 1935 Fed "1 turn".
I have added them in the wiki.

Thanks to the owners!

Jacques.

more about FED Arsenal
http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=9
Regards to all
LP

Thanks, Luiz.

By this article, there is an inscription inside the Fed bodies, which represents the date of making.
In my Fed Arsenal, I have a "III" on the body, behind the film plate (photo already posted).


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1922017_DSCF2178.JPG

Could it be for march?

Jacques.

I saw similar sign in a FED. But it was long time ago. I don't remember in which FED it was and what was the sign.

After a long search and intense digging through the archives, I almost despaired of finding illustrative material in my search. It so happened that this year, on May 9, after a long illness, Serov Nikolai Fedorovich, the chief engineer and head of the head of photography production, died. His memory is fresh, but it was he who, during his lifetime, directed me into the mainstream of the subject and direction of searches. At one time, he suggested where there could be an illustration of what is so necessary for documentary confirmation, for which I am especially grateful to him. And so here is an image that confirms the products of the Plant, the production of fed at the arsenal. This is a frame from a formatted glass photo plate, among other reporting elements produced by the coating shop.

The report was compiled by the end of the 4th five-year plan of the USSR

Retaken by me through the light due to the lack of scanning equipment in this archive photo taken on a mobile phone plate in the light




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25122022_320173279_1522879618192119_9098875490796308875_n.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25122022_321240948_2086536421547178_2831498898881650725_n.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25122022_321303778_480899073973482_2800357425551425880_n.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent2/25122022_321076106_2025411100985487_504357818180094894_n.jpg

Many thanks for this lucky find, Alzo!
Could you be more precise and tell more about it (if it is possible...)
And could somebody translate the Russian text?

Thanks!
Amitiйs. Jacques.

Top: "Anodic blackening of copper alloys"
Bottom: "The oxidized film of oxidized copper alloys in a 20% alkali solution has great mechanical strength and a beautiful decorative appearance. The anode oxidation bath is easy to operate, the electrolyte is highly stable."
(Google translation)

Thanks, Alex.
Of course, it would have been indisputable if it had spoken of the Fed-Arsenal production. But as it is, it's a very interesting indirect confirmation. And it shows a serial number we don't have in our listing (00226?).
Thanks again, Alzo!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Jacques, I think you've misunderstood the meaning of this photo that Alzo posted. This is a film negative from Arsenal factory archives from around the time this camera was made demonstrating a anodation process and has the top of FED-Arsenal as an example in it. For me this is an indisputable evidence of validity of such camera existence and manufacture by Arsenal plant, being this part of an official factory report for the 4 year plan. And I know for a fact that Alzo has access to Arsenal factory archive materials. Personally this puts all of the doubt about this camera to rest and I will move it to an Arsenal section in the catalog.

Best regards,
Vlad

I had not understand...
So, that document puts a final point to our discussion about the place where these cameras were made... I must say I am a bit moved!
Thanks again, Alzo!
You have put the camera in the Kiev section, Vlad. It is logical. But personally, I would have seen it among the Feds?

Amitiйs. Jacques.