Fed-Arsenal

Lenny,

I have read all of the posts on this FED-Arsenal thread, but I don’t know if you have read them carefully as the documents were not from the FED archive, but rather the Arsenal archive.

It may be that you and others on the forum have come to the conclusion or opinion that the FED-Arsenal cameras that we know were made at FED-Arsenal just after the end of the War. However, there is no proof that the cameras we have seen are the ones that were envisioned to be made at FED-Arsenal. We probably have proof that officials thought that Arsenal could make FEDs and maybe even that the process was started to some extent, but that is different from knowing for sure that the cameras known are the ones (if there were any).

So far we only have eight examples and at least two of those seem to be fakes or at least made up of different, non-original parts. That is - 25% fake.

As well, the idea that if they were made for the military, cameras would not have passports is not very likely. All Soviet military technical equipment was required to have passports including that from the more secretive branches like the KGB. The idea that cameras were just given to workers (‘the milk maids’) is also unlikely as they would more likely have been sold, if possible, and would have also had passports if either gifts or sold. They would have had serial numbers and detailed passports.

I have originated and edited many Wiki entries but I have never deleted another authors’ opinion and substituted my own because I did not agree. So, as I asked you … why did you take away the text reflecting my opinion that there is uncertainty that these cameras are authentic examples? You are sure they are authentic and so my opinion does not matter?

Also, I have long wondered where you live and if you have a collection. Another subject, indeed, but your profile seems to be quite anonymous and uninformative on a personal level and we have not seen any photos of your collection.

Regards, Bill

This is interesting thing with FED-Arsenal. There is no proof FEDs were produced in Arsenal.

So I have another idea. We can put FED-Arsenal into Wiki with description that probably FEDs were made in Arsenal but there is no proof and link to this thread and without any photos because we don't know which camera is original, if some is original.
This is in order somebody may look for informations about FED-Arsenal and it is beter to read this thread than find nothing.
What do you think about that ?

Hello Alfa2,

In general I like your idea and was also thinking that it might be very helpful to have a link to this thread from the Wiki page. Also, I agree that the photos of my camera should not be on the WIKI page as my camera was obviously either a fake or had many non-original parts and so is not representative of the cameras we are discussing. But I think that photos of both models should be on the WIKI entry page, for reference, then with the link to this thread, a person can get a good idea of what's goining on. As well, the FED-Arsenal entry should be moved into the "Unidentified / Contested Authenticity" category.

However, if we go ahead and do this, how will we know that someone won't rewrite the entry, at will, to say the camera is for sure authentic, or for sure a fake, depending on their own opinion?

Regards, Bill

I didn't move the entry into regular Wiki category because I'm of the same opinion as Bill. Even though I'm convinced that these cameras were made based on documentary evidence that Altix provided, I'm not convinced that these are the same cameras that were made and until there is concrete evidence of that I'd like to not display these in "authentic" section.

quote:

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Originally posted by nightphoto

Lenny,

I have read all of the posts on this FED-Arsenal thread, but I don’t know if you have read them carefully as the documents were not from the FED archive, but rather the Arsenal archive.

It may be that you and others on the forum have come to the conclusion or opinion that the FED-Arsenal cameras that we know were made at FED-Arsenal just after the end of the War. However, there is no proof that the cameras we have seen are the ones that were envisioned to be made at FED-Arsenal. We probably have proof that officials thought that Arsenal could make FEDs and maybe even that the process was started to some extent, but that is different from knowing for sure that the cameras known are the ones (if there were any).

So far we only have eight examples and at least two of those seem to be fakes or at least made up of different, non-original parts. That is - 25% fake.

As well, the idea that if they were made for the military, cameras would not have passports is not very likely. All Soviet military technical equipment was required to have passports including that from the more secretive branches like the KGB. The idea that cameras were just given to workers (‘the milk maids’) is also unlikely as they would more likely have been sold, if possible, and would have also had passports if either gifts or sold. They would have had serial numbers and detailed passports.

I have originated and edited many Wiki entries but I have never deleted another authors’ opinion and substituted my own because I did not agree. So, as I asked you … why did you take away the text reflecting my opinion that there is uncertainty that these cameras are authentic examples? You are sure they are authentic and so my opinion does not matter?

Also, I have long wondered where you live and if you have a collection. Another subject, indeed, but your profile seems to be quite anonymous and uninformative on a personal level and we have not seen any photos of your collection.

Regards, Bill

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Bill, of course I meant the FED-Arsenal archives.

I'm sure and I think others are sure too that FED-Arsenal cameras were made at Arsenal, otherwise Altix and Alzo wouldn't have stopped searching. If the cameras listed in the wiki are original or not is a totally different story, as in every other entry we can't be sure that all listed serials are original. But FED-Arsenal cameras are real and the entry should be moved to the Arsenal section, this is not a Phantasy camera.

I meant if cameras were made for the military passports were likely stored somewhere central at the military and were not together with the cameras and those passports could still be somewhere at the military.
It seems the camera of Davidenko's friend was given as a gift.

What is written in the wiki is anonymous, I'm not able to check who wrote what. I thought from reading the thread that all agreed that FED-Arsenal cameras were produced. Again, if those serials listed in the wiki are original or not is a totally different story, those are only known examples, original or not. It's the same with listed serials with the same number, they are not marked which is real or fake, but someone who reads the listing can make own conclusions. Also Vlad doesn't like to mark cameras as fake because we can't be 100% sure. But FED-Arsenal is not a Phantasy. Normally, I always try to keep what is written in the wiki, but not if there is false information. So do you think that no FED-Arsenal camera was made at Arsenal? There are other entries with fake cameras listed in my opinion but I don't mark them as fakes because we can't be 100% sure. And in this entry #00020 is marked with Zorki parts but not as a fake and I also changed nothing of that information which was already there.

I'm sure you heard about collectors who are well known and their cameras were stolen from their homes. Besides that, it shouldn't matter if posters are anonymous or not, only important is their contribution to the community. I posted photos already.

I'm ok with putting it into contested section.

quote:

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Originally posted by Vlad

I didn't move the entry into regular Wiki category because I'm of the same opinion as Bill. Even though I'm convinced that these cameras were made based on documentary evidence that Altix provided, I'm not convinced that these are the same cameras that were made and until there is concrete evidence of that I'd like to not display these in "authentic" section.

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Then we should just make a note that the authenticity of each sample is not proven. Besides that I think Jacques camera might be original.

Readers who search for FED-Arsenal can't find them.

It's a special section just for that purpose. Users can use the search feature to find it. Until there's a concrete documentation for at least one of them we can say any of these are 100% authentic. thus it goes into this section.

quote:

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Originally posted by Vlad

It's a special section just for that purpose. Users can use the search feature to find it. Until there's a concrete documentation for at least one of them we can say any of these are 100% authentic. thus it goes into this section.

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Then Red-Flag should be there too. Or did you see the passport Princelle was talking about?

quote:

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Originally posted by Vlad

It's a special section just for that purpose. Users can use the search feature to find it. Until there's a concrete documentation for at least one of them we can say any of these are 100% authentic. thus it goes into this section.

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Some readers might not be familiar with the features of this website.

I can tell I searched for some minutes, others just might give up. It should be assumed that this website should have at least a little true information, and we have that in the text in the entry, but it can't be found in the Arsenal section. Very poor.

quote:

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Originally posted by nightphoto

Hello Alfa2,

In general I like your idea and was also thinking that it might be very helpful to have a link to this thread from the Wiki page. Also, I agree that the photos of my camera should not be on the WIKI page as my camera was obviously either a fake or had many non-original parts and so is not representative of the cameras we are discussing. But I think that photos of both models should be on the WIKI entry page, for reference, then with the link to this thread, a person can get a good idea of what's goining on. As well, the FED-Arsenal entry should be moved into the "Unidentified / Contested Authenticity" category.

However, if we go ahead and do this, how will we know that someone won't rewrite the entry, at will, to say the camera is for sure authentic, or for sure a fake, depending on their own opinion?

Regards, Bill

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The bad thing is, users can see on the first page if an entry was edited, but they can't see what was edited.

For example, on fotoua, if a camera was added you can see the number of the collector in red for one day, besides that there is a number of the amount of cameras listed. Then you can put in days to see which cameras were added recently. Very easy to follow.

Here added text in the entry should be highlighted for 1 week so we all can see what has changed. Is that possible?

Some interesting information could be found in those recente done pages.

http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=3

http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=5
two intersting articles on FED Arsenal

http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=2
and this one about VTSVS.

Lots of interesting information. Use Translator
Regards
LP

http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=6
http://photolubitel.com/index.php?route=module/kbm/article&kbm_article_id=7
Fotokor with variations and the TEMP Shutter (Compur type)

Luiz!
Bravo!!! Thanks!

Who can translate it, I understand only half.

Salut Jacques,

how was your vacation, good you are back.

How do you think about the photolubitel articles Luiz posted above? Especially about FED-Arsenal. The VTSVS should be discussed in another thread.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lenny

Salut Jacques,
How do you think about the photolubitel articles Luiz posted above? Especially about FED-Arsenal.

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I'm not Jacques ;), but near to the same conclusions are here: http://www.zenitcamera.com/articles/cameras/zenit-prehistory.html
(I repeat the link, that somehow went unnoticed.)
In addition, the points that have remained unsolved, are explained.
The whole story is not fully clarified yet. But only some details are left.

I'm not Zoom...

First, all my thanks to Luiz! I just wonder (as a westie!) who is behind the author who has access to these ultra rare cameras... But other USSRphoto forumers are unknown...

These articles are exciting. I particularly like the proceeding of the author: collect information before any synthesis.

So, we have now some more Fed-Arsenal to examine, and one of them with the 1/1000th, as it seems. Some (many?) of them with a close relationship with the Fed 1e, by the "B" inside the cover.

We had guessed here that these cameras could have been made mainly from original Fed parts, and partly from Arsenal made ones. It's a confirmation. And that there were in fact two foreseen batches, if we follow the plate engravings (and the serial numbers).

We have now to wait for some new discoveries. No doubt they will happen, thanks to this thread! Anyway, it's absolutely not the moment to say which is, or not, genuine.

Something else: on the way "from Kharkov to Kharkhov", so, from 1941 to 1948, the real and certain history has always to be written...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

quote:

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Originally posted by elnur

Hi guys! Help to identificate. Fake or not?

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About this s/n 00020, it's evident that it was not made with 1d or 1e parts: the 3 screws under the rewind button and the central screw, half hidden under the lensplate, denote a 1b or early 1c body. The absence of hole for the slow speeds in the upper plate is a confirmation.

That said, we don't know which materials were available for these cameras. Certainly, the Arsenal guys used what they had. So, to declare this camera is a fake would be a bit short. For the moment, we just have to compile...

Jacques.

from the article that Luiz posted in part one I am confused about this camera, it may be a bit offtopic for this thread as it's more for Berdsk thread but this Berdsk shield/logo FED-B with serial # in 180xxx range.. it goes against everything established so far... it only proves that you can't expect consistency or logic in Soviet production


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/362016_ris_6all.jpg

Hi Vlad,

Probably just a late FED-1e 'Berdsk'. The plate is probably just put on to personalize the camera (owners initials). The plaque may even have been cut from some other object with the monogram, such as a cigarette lighter or damaged piece of silver - vase, cigarette case, etc. Maybe was put in place to cover a hole by someone trying to add a slow speed dial, but unsuccessful. Probably not very relevant to the 'Berdsk' story or history. Can you read the monogram? "NIIS"?

Regards, Bill