Fed-Arsenal

Sorry, but we went in the middle of the thread to the level when decided to abandon rumors and logical guess. If there is no documentary proofs about Contax production in "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod" then I consider your logical conclusion is doubtful. Also in the article of Bernd K. Otto there is no evidence that supports your conclusion. This was a working -name for a camera. Zeiss factory was divided among several factories and this was decided in summer -autumn 1945. Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod is not figured in any of the lists. The camera Volga was just a legend for German workers. It was strictly prohibited to speak with Zeiss directors or workers about planned dismantlement. Any intentions of Soviet side were hidden by legends, one of which for me seems to be the mythical Volga camera. Some time ago I thought in the same way as you, but now in the view of documents that I've read recently, for me the most logical conclusion is that there never existed any intention to transport Contax production to Volga region.


I do not know how to answer your questions about dairymaids. If there shortage in working force for some peasants were made exclusions. And military Arsenal remained in Ural region. Kiev Arsenal was prepared for merely civil production (at least those workshops where dairymaids were working). The observation about workers from nearest villages did also one Zeiss worker in his letter from Kiev. I cannot find it at the moment but probably I've read it in W. Mьhlfriedel, E. Hellmuth "Carl Zeiss in Jena 1945-1990" Kцln 2004 (I do not have this book at the moment by hand to confirm it).

I will send you the scans with data about dismantled equipment tomorrow in private.

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Originally posted by altix

Sorry, but we went in the middle of the thread to the level when decided to abandon rumors and logical guess. If there is no documentary proofs...

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If you do not want to use logic - I do not insist. Btw, the documents are also lie.

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Originally posted by altix

And military Arsenal remained in Ural region. Kiev Arsenal was prepared for merely civil production...

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:D The plant number 784 of NKV (People's Commissariat of weapons) -- "was prepared for merely civil production"... You made me a day.

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Originally posted by altix

The observation about workers from nearest villages did also one Zeiss worker in his letter from Kiev.

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From "nearest villages" is not equal "from kolkhozes".

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Originally posted by altix

I will send you then scans with data about dismantled equipment tomorrow in private.

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Чекаю з нетерпінням.

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You made me a day.

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I am glad to hear this. I doubt that existed some severe restrictions on the plan that was under repairmen and reconstruction. If it was allowed to people to sleep inside the factory walls I think that your statement about the high security standards in 1945 in Arsenal is under the question. Specially for you I wrote

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Kiev Arsenal was prepared for merely civil production (at least those workshops where dairymaids were working)

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In 1945 to my knowledge they did not produced any military device. There were a shortage in human resources and in transport. This caused delays in final preparation of factories to accept dismantled Zeiss plant. The involvement of people from near villages and ex-kolhozes were completely possible.

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If you do not want to use logic - I do not insist. Btw, the documents are also lie.

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I do not see much logic in your connection of Volga name with Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod. I do not know any document that proves that a part of Zeiss production was planned for transfer there. In the same time I know that for Soviet side all decisions about the future dismantling strategy were rendered before Volga name appeared in Zeiss documentation. And in these decisions were no place for Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod. So strictly logically (using Occam's razor amd the Laplace's principle of sufficient reason) one should accept that Volga name has nothing to do with Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod. To prove the opposite you need to show any document that gives a proof of such connection.

The problem is not whether or not some female workers at Arsenal had previously been dairymaids, or which farm they exactly came from, but the problem is that this 'dairymaid' idea is being used to try to prove that the FED-Arsenal camera examples that we know of, are authentic, and that the poor chrome job on them is due to 'dairymaids' or untrained workers! I have not seen this kind of thin and poor chrome job on any Soviet camera (even made right after the war), except on fakes that were chrome-plated in a home workshop. ( Maybe the Polish and Ukrainian fakes are made by dairymaids when the milk prices are down! ;.))

You can not take propaganda statements that are written as propaganda, whether from Soviet or American or anywhere else, and use it as proof.

To my friend Jacques: Yes, we can think that the FED-Arsenal cameras we know of are authentic even though not proven, or we can think of them as fake until proven (given certain technical details). But, I think it is best just to withhold judgement as to authenticity until there comes a time when some actual proof is available.

At this point, through the good work of Zoom, Alzo and Altrix, there is much more information easily available (regarding the Arsenal Factory history), but it all just leads to the idea that some camera production was thought of (ordered) for the city of Kiev. Nothing shows that the FED-Arsenal camera was made at Arsenal or at that time period. So, better not to jump to conclusions without facts.

Look at how the story of the FED Berdsk has changed over time. Look at how the story of the migration of the Contax to Kiev has changed over time. Probably more will be uncovered about FED-Arsenal over time.

Regards, Bill

I love Zoom's "bla-bla-bla" in a previous post!

In fact, probably we all agree. As for me, I don't say "Fed Arsenals were made at Arsenal's" but "I think that Fed Arsenals...". A great difference, certainly. And I will wait before I swear anything even if I feel a reasonable certitude now. As for the dairymaids, the cows and the Polish milkman...

Like Bill, I think that the scenery is suddenly changing. After that episode, who is able to say, for example, when and where a late Fed 1e was made? Or even a Red Flag? For sure? Even before, it was difficult! If Fed's remaining parts, tools and documents were scattered in several places during the war (and after), of course the factory had great problems to recover...

Jacques.

One more detail that I have noticed about the actual engraving on the FED-Arsenal:

The letters "No." before the serial numbers are different than the same "No." before the serial numbers of the Theodolites pictured.
On the theodolites from Arsenal, even as late as 1952, the large "N" curves over the small "o". On the FED-Arsenal cameras the "N" is straight with no curling at either end.

Also the chrome looks pretty good on all of the theodolites shown in the recent posts. The "dairymaids" sure got good at chrome-plating quickly !;.))


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2492015_resize_image.jpg


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2492015_resize_image-1.jpg



Regards, Bill

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Originally posted by altix

I do not see much logic in your connection of Volga name with Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod.

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What another plant could use this trademark?

Somehow I reminded this song (sorry, my translation):

In this world there is no accidental events,
Each step leaves its trace,
And there is no miracle, and coincidences are extremely rare,
And the course of the time is invariable,
And often a takeoff turns to a fall,
And I saw how the fall becomes the rise...
...

Bill,

Yes, the "N°" is different.
But the drawing of "67" seems made by the same pencil-plate on the two photos...
It would be interesting to know if there were different shapes of "N°" at Arsenal's, and when they appeared.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

The "6"s are similar, but the end of the "6" on the theodolite almost is touching the body ... on the FED-Arsenal there is some room between the end and the body.

The differences of the "N" are distinct. Maybe means something, maybe not.



Regards, Bill

Right, Bill, the "7" is similar and the "6" slightly different. The devil is in the details!

Altix will certainly tell us if the specific "N°", on theodolites, existed before 1947...

Always about details: it seems that the 00004 and the 00216 have a specific vulcanite, not far from the Red Flag's. And this vulcanite looks varnished...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

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Altix will certainly tell us if the specific "N°", on theodolites, existed before 1947...

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No I will not since I never saw theodolites from 1945 or 1946. I think it is better to wait other Arsenal documentation on this camera from archive. I just point out that the way of writing "N°" varied in time on Arsenal. Actually my task here was to show that such camera existed. I hope to complete this task in the nearest future. Concerning the originality of each concrete sample I would not like to debate because it can last forever.

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What another plant could use this trademark?

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I don't want discus this issue further. I will go to Jena and look on documents by myself. I played in your game and used the name "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod" that I copied from you. I know the factory Nr 237 or Kazansky optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod. According to your logic the camera working-name should be not "Volga" but "Kazan" or instead "Kiev" cameras we would have "Dnepr" cameras. Even using your name "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod" the semantic analogy Volga-Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod is very poor proof. Say using this photo


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/2592015_kmz.jpg

I can draw a lot of ridiculous conclusions about KMZ in Krasnogorsk using the semantic analogy.

I find your site very interesting and you did a great job, but I do not accept some your interpretations and comments. Sorry.

Zoom, please send me the message in private since I do not know how to send you the files I promised.

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Originally posted by altix

I know the factory Nr 237 or Kazansky optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod.

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But now, from me, you know that originally it was publicly called as: "Volzhskiy" ("Волжский оптико-механический завод" or "Волжский оптический завод"). I agree that this name (or better to say: nickname) is rare and has been used more for conspiracy for a plant's number replacement... But exactly the same situation was with other plants (KMZ, NPZ)...

From http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/novikov_vn/09.html , for example:

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Побывал и на Волжском оптическом заводе, где директором был А. Ф. Соловьёв. Завод начали строить ещё до войны, но не закончили. Война ускорила дело. Когда оказался там, увидел уже вполне завершённое производство, хотя кое-что ещё достраивали. А. Ф. Соловьёв был лет на десять старше меня, уже поседевший, с солидной лысиной, шедшей ото лба, но по краям ещё с богатой шевелюрой. Целый день он знакомил меня с цехами, оптическим производством, самими приборами.

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Originally posted by altix

I think it is better to wait other Arsenal documentation on this camera from archive. I just point out that the way of writing "N°" varied in time on Arsenal. Actually my task here was to show that such camera existed. I hope to complete this task in the nearest future. Concerning the originality of each concrete sample I would not like to debate because it can last forever.

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Official documents from Arsenal dating to 1945 - 1947, and concerning the actual production of a FED camera by Arsenal, would be most welcome and would absolutely prove that a FED-Arsenal camera was made.

If the document(s) confirming actual manufacture are found, then of course it will be necessary to try to examine the technical details of each known example to ascertain which of them may be authentic examples, or which may not be authentic. Especially necessary as there appear to be technical differences, serial number groups, and at least two versions of the logo on these cameras. Maybe all are authentic, maybe some are authentic, maybe none are authentic. This can be the case even if proven that actual examples were made by Arsenal during 1945 - 1947.

Of course we will miss your insights if you decide not to participate in those discussions as they occur, Altrix, but thank you very much for your researches already finished and future documents you may find.

Very big thanks to Zoom as always, as his website, posts, and insights are a wealth of factual information concerning many subjects we are all interested in.

Regards, Bill

Dear Bill,

I think it is high time to postpone all discussions on the camera until new documents will appear. There exist some problems with taking permissions to copy the documents we are looking for. I am unsure about the outcome but I hope everything would be fine. I did not know previously but in Ukraine the documents with the seal secret should be kept 75 years under this seal. Anyway, if we will not succeed with the permission to copy in 5 or 6 years it will became possible. I hope to finish with the FED Arsenal ambiguity earlier

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Of course we will miss your insights if you decide not to participate in those discussions as they occur

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Thank you Bill, but I feel that I wrote in this thread too much that people would start to believe that I have a great passion for this camera or I can give some useful insight in discussions. In fact, I like Contax and Kiev cameras (Zeiss and early KMZ optics), even more to shoot with them as to discuss them And of course Carl Zeiss Jena history (and Arsenal history in a connection with this subject) is what fascinates me since the time I visited Optical museum in Jena for the first time.

I hope to appear here very soon with the new information.

with best regards, altix

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/11112015_20151111_141703.jpeg
One more

Nice! And with light traces of brushing on the chrome, like the others, as it seems? Congratulations, Ilyast!
Could you tell which sort of lens you have?

Thanks. Jacques.

Thanks,
FED f=50

It looks like a very early "1 turn" Fed lens, no?
Like on the s/n 00216 that Altix showed above in this thread.

Jacques.

Dear all,

I wish you a happy New Year!

In order to put an end to the topic of FED Arsenal originality I will share two more documents. These Arsenal factory documents are taken by Alzo from State Archive of Kyiv http://kiev-arhiv.gov.ua/en/. There is a long story about all difficulties he met on the way to make these photocopies. The documents are still under the seal "Secret" and this causes a lot of problems.

I want to declare that the following documentation is published the first time. The last time Arsenal factory archive was inspected by factory employers in 1985. Any claims that everybody knows this fact and everything is well known are ridiculous.


The first document is the letter of factory director Smirnov to the Head of 2nd Main Administration of NKW comrade Dobrovolskiy dated by 22.12.45 (almost exactly 70 years ago).

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/212016_ark98WM.jpg

In the letter Smirnov informs that
"...The factory does not have an equipment for (the production) of photo-camera "FED". The first batch of 100 cameras will be produced by factory in primitive way. Simultaneously the proof of developed technology will be conducted.

For broadening of production of photo-camera "FED" and grinding machines the factory plans the increase of incomplete production to the tune of 300 thousands of Rubels."


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/212016_ark98WM2.jpg

Honestly to say, I do not understand what does it mean "the increase of incomplete production". Anyway, from this letter it is clear that the production of FED cameras was planned in 1946 but already in 1945 it was evident that the shortage of needed equipment will influence the production numbers and their quality.

The second document is the 172nd page of Arsenal factory archive dated by late 1947. The quality of paper is very bad so I reproduce the Russian text as well


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/212016_ark177WM.jpg

"Остатки незавершенного производства на конец года составляют реальную сумму по всем заказам, за исключением незавершенного производства аппарата ФЭД, какое списать с баланса по представленным ведоместям Министерства не разрешило, а предложило реализовать его как гражданскую продукцию найдя покупателей. "




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/212016_ark177WM1.jpg


"The rests of incomplete production at the end of the year make up the real sum on all orders. The only exception is the incomplete production of camera FED. The Ministry prohibited to write off it from the balance. Instead the Ministry proposed to sell cameras as civil production by finding the buyers."

So the whole project of FED Arsenal cameras was not successful. The production was started in 1945 and ended in 1947. The proposition of Ministry to sell the cameras to civil market is interesting. This means that initially these cameras were intended for military use. This explains why some of the cameras have "military-Arsenal" logo.