TSVVS / VTS-VS Camera Discussion

Alain,
Seems like if FED was part of the TSVVS project, then some FED parts would be used and no TSVVS parts look like they are the same as FED.

GOMZ may be more possible since there is the prototype c. 1952 that Milos Mladek owns (top of page 58 ~ Princelle) which shows that they will screw a lens mount plate on the front of a camera (even though it is Alpa bayonet mount). Also they have often made things for the military or Ministry of Defense and evidently did have some German expertise and personnel after the war. So maybe GOMZ - LOMO is another possibility.

Regards, Bill

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Originally posted by nightphoto

About the camera ... VTS-VS, what do you think about where and which factory made it?

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I think that "the East German version" has an ample grounds to be the most probable.

quote:

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Originally posted by nightphoto

Also they have often made things for the military or Ministry of Defense and evidently did have some German expertise and personnel after the war.

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;) All Soviet optic plants belong to the Ministry of Defense Industry (MOP = МОП = Министерство оборонной промышленности), exclude FED (Aviation Industry, MAP = МАП = Министерство авиационной промышленности).
The major portion of the "German personnel" worked in KMZ.

Hello Zoom,

Why do you think of the East German ground? Where? Jena?
But Jena would be difficult, because of the mount which is not the same on Contaxes...
And what about the lenses which were used on TSVVS?


Kind regards. Jacques.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

Where? Jena?

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Zeiss had many factories, not in Jena only... ;)

I'm only think that "the East German version" is the most probable, but I havn't facts. :( But: there is no plant logo on this camera (only lens has!).
Or the star etc. is this logo, may be a lot modified (see, for example, plant #297 logo: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-logos.html#yoz ) -- but this version is unlikely.

Thanks for your valued opinion, Zoom.

I have also thought possibly East German for a long time. I think the mount is different from the Contax because it was made for a Leica-FED body ... not a Contax body. You can't just take a Contax mount and screw it onto a Leica-FED style body ... it has to be a new machined part.

If it was made as a special camera to give to high ranking Soviet military officers and other important people ("General's FED"), then there would be no reason to make it so that it would fit anything other than a 50mm Sonnar lens. If a telephoto or wide angle photograph was needed, it could just be ordered from a staff photographer or surveillance team. The TSVVS would have just been a fine trophy camera for normal photography and show. Excellent bright finish, leather or fancy covering, beautiful logo with Soviet hammer, sickle, and star, high-quality leather case, and the best quality captured German Zeiss Sonnar lens! What else can you ask for as a reward for heroic work for your country!

Also, the story that was told to Alexey Nitikin when he bought a TSVVS ... that it was originally bought by the man's father, a Soviet soldier, from a warehouse in Germany and that more than one could have been purchased ... has the ring of truth to it. Why would someone make up a story like that when selling a TSVVS ... a Soviet military item? Only someone who reads this forum or other discussions about TSVVS would even think to make up a story like that since the camera has Soviet markings on it.

And, as Zoom says, Zeiss had many factories in Germany, and probably also many non-Zeiss factories from which they bought parts (just a guess ... I don't know this for a fact). If the screws are not perfect, as Milos Mladek has relayed to Vlad in his letter, to me this might not be surprising in post-war Germany as many factories that supplied precision parts were targeted and destroyed through bombing by the Allies. And the Almaz factory was making aeronautical, rocketry, anti-missile defense, and other highly technical and technologically exacting equipment ... so why would they not have access to perfect tiny screws?

And, why no Soviet factory logo ... a leather case entirely unlike any Soviet camera case ... a brighter and finer chrome finish than on any Soviet camera ... leather and plastic coverings that are both unlike any seen on Soviet cameras ... and, the small stamped numbers on the bottom plate and shutter cage which are not seen on other Soviet camera (but are seen on German cameras)? Even the style of the engraved numbers and letters looks different than any Soviet cameras.

The history of the Zeiss factories and productions may not be completely known by now, just as it was only within the past few years that a more complete view of the "Contax to Kiev" story and that of the Jena Contax has become clear. There may still be things that are not known about the post war production of Zeiss and related or satellite factories at this time. The whole key is always to keep asking the questions and look for answers to them, while keeping an open mind, in my opinion.



Regards, Bill

I think I've found the secret production plant, it is in France and still active
http://www.collection-appareils.fr/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=9185

may be somewhere in Gennevilliers or Boulogne-Billancourt... ;-)


Stephan

Hi All
Receently reading Abramov’s site about TSVVS (or VTSVS) http://www.photohistory.ru/1207248179842956.html whose text I translate, I formulated a new theory about these cameras. Please observe:
This is na hybrid camera. On a FED body it is mounted a bayonet from "Kiev" (it was used only the internal bayonet).
For some reason it is written atop this camera "Топографическая Служба ВВС" ("Topographical service of the Air Forces") (believing that this camera was used in any way for topographical shootings purposes is impossible - read "Aerial camera" section in Georgy Abramov’s site).

However it can be more probable another variant of reading the name (if to read it on a circle) it can be "Военно-топографическая служба Вооруженных сил" ("ВТСВС") ("the Military-topographical service of Armed forces") (this service incorporating Scientific research institute of Military-topographical service, among other things, in particular prepared a book edition about aerophototopography). These cameras were prepaired with trophy lenses "Carl Zeiss Sonnar 1,5/50" or "2,0/50". Chambers were made in a high technological level and were finished with genuine leather (black or blue). Judging by numbers in the first year of manufacture (1949) it has been let out by the little more than 300 copies (311-312?), and total release for two years of manufacture has not exceeded 1000 copies.

Remembering that the FED concern were owned by the “Air Force”, as well as the former Berdsk factory, Taking into account that people at Berdsk plant were now experienced in how to build FED cameras, observe that the time lapse 1946-1949 was sufficient to put into operation a new line of cameras with the “trophy” Sonnar lenses. Of course, it was much more convenient in building the new camera with mounts intended to accept the German lenses. The small production denotes a hand made construction. The small universe of available lenses limited the production of bodies, so high qualities in slow production pacing were available At those years Siberia had the highest professionals of Russia, not only due the “War Protection” given to intellectuals and skilful people, but also based on traditions, and why not to believe in an extra “natural German cooperation” coming together the “trophy lenses”? Of course studying the Politics of the period, all Scientific research institutes had a symbiosis together a production plant. Why not this recently camera “orphaned” Berdsk factory could not be put into operation?

So, the afore mentined camera is evidently of Soviet production.
If not,we would know that, long before Soviet cameras were known in the West.
Regards
LP

Hi Luiz,

Although it is another theory worth considering, manufacture of TSVVS at Berdsk has no evidence ... just another possibility. I believe that the Military Topographical Service of the Armed Forces is not part of the Air Force, even if they did use planes to photograph from and aeronautical cameras at times. Usually the Topographical Services of different countries are attached to the Army as they are the ones mostly in need of topographical information (although of course all services need it).

Also, I would think that if the factory at Berdsk made the TSVVS then they would have used a FED as an exact model, and in the case of the TSVVS there is really not too many similarities, besides the overall "Leica copy" look of the camera. The TSVVS has different body measurements, smaller viewfinder window, different shutter cage design details, different metals used, different film pressure plate, a very high quality finish, different coverings, and many other details that are not similar to the FED. If made at Berdsk, I would think that more of the details would match up with the FED, but maybe more handmade rather than totally different designs.

And as far as you final point, if 300 to 1000 cameras were made in a country besides the Soviet Union, for example East Germany, but were made expressly for the military on a specific military order, I think that these cameras would have been all in the hands of Soviets, in the Soviet Union, shortly after they were made, and thus would not have shown up earlier than other Soviet cameras became known to the West. And, as we know, many East German military cameras, such as those used by the STASI were only commonly known to the collectors of the West with the fall of the Berlin wall.

But, Berdsk should not be ruled out either! Eventually we may see some documentation but until then all theories should be discussed and considered. I so far have on my list: Almaz Factory ... Berdsk Factory ... Unknown East German Factory ... Zeiss Jena ... LOMO ... MMZ - Завод N297 НКВ - Марийский машиностроительный завод ... Unknown Soviet Factory ... and ... FED. No doubt some are less likely than others, and no doubt there are other factories and theories to be added..... just take a look at the list of factory logos on the KMZ website that Zoom has provided a link to.

What about the Novosibirsky Pribori Zavod (NPZ) in Novosibirsk which made the Vostok around the same time? Maybe they are a candidate too?

Regards, Bill

quote:

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Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo


For some reason it is written atop this camera "Топографическая Служба ВВС" ("Topographical service of the Air Forces")...
However it can be more probable another variant...

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Forget the first variant forever! ;) There was only one Military topographical service in Russian Imperia, Soviet Union and Russia Federation again. Only one common, general service. In the direct subordination to the General Staff.

Btw., it was difficult to the Berdsk factory to made cameras... See the GKO decree #2445 title: http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n2445 ;)

quote:

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Originally posted by nightphoto

What about the Novosibirsky Pribori Zavod (NPZ) in Novosibirsk which made the Vostok around the same time? Maybe they are a candidate too?

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It'll be the very good candidate, but there is no NPZ plant logo on the camera... :(

Yes Zoom, I have noticed that even with the original FS-2 GOI and KMZ Fotosnipers that the plant logo is shown along with the military logo of Star - Hammer - Sickle. Also the factory logos are seen on binoculars and lenses made for the Soviet military.

So this might make it more likely that the camera was made in Soviet Occupied East Germany since it would be unlikely that a German logo would have been acceptable on a Soviet military camera ;-) Also may be the reason that we do not see documents like passports and manuals for it.

Regards, Bill

So, I've put a lot of money together and bought me a TSVVS :-)
It arrived today. Wow, what an amazing camera. I've never seen such a solid made USSR camera until now. The chrome is shiny as it is on a Contax.

I have compared it to the pictures I have found on the web and it is an original one. If this is a fake I am a fake too :-)

But there is one thing... Bill, you have said that the body of a TSVVS is a bit bigger than a FED 1 one. The camera that I have has the same body size then a FED 1. So how can this be? Did they have changed the body size in the later production period? I believe that mine is real, it has a brass body, rangefinder cam, all viewfinder lenses and rings, numbers stamped on body and bottom, everything is like I can see it on the pictures of yours.

To warm up the discussion where it was made... it's hard to say, soeme facts say that it's sowjet made (the screws and the inner body) some facts say that there must be german Zeiss(?) or Leica(?) made parts in it (chrome and leather like Contax, the smooth cocking and the releasing like Leica).

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

That's good news for you, Ulrich!
What are the serial numbers of the body and lens? It seems they are not in the wiki.
I have just compared mine (a 1949 one) with any of my Fed and you are right: they have the same size. So...
The problem remains open!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques,

thanks :-) I am really proud to own one now. I will put the serial no and the lens number in the Wiki the next days. The lens serial number (Sonnar 2.0/50) matches, it starts with 30.

By the way, it is really interesting, it lies disassembled on the table now and there is NO part that is like any part of an early or later FED. Even the wind brake spring, the small part that holds the 2 screws of it, the screws itself, the spring under the rewind lever, everyting is different. The shutter curtain material is different and every screw on the camera.

It seems to look as if it's a Leica, but I have disassembled 2 or 3 prewar Leicas (IIIa and IIIb) before and they are also different to this beast :-) So which factory has built it...?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Btw, when I inspect the bag of the TSVVS and compare it to the pictures of Bill's bag (it looks the same), this bag seems to be a Leica bag. The leather, the seams, the felt and the velvet inside are like a bag from a Leica. Could it be that there where used Leica bags with a re-stamped or new sewed snout on it?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Ulrich and Jacques,

I am in the process of moving from one house to another so I can't compare the size of my FED to my TSVVS. However, from my memory, if you place them next to each other they seem the same size, but if you try to put a FED bottom plate over the TSVVS body while its plate is removed, I think you will see the difference. It is not large, probably just 0.5 mm or so ... but the bottom plates are not interchangeable as far as size.

Congratulations Ulrich! I think that as you use the camera and examine it, you will see why I have serious doubts that it was made in the USSR, as I have expressed in some of the posts in this thread.... but no doubt is a Soviet camera in that it was made especially for the Soviet military.



Regards, Bill

You are right, Bill: impossible to put a Fed bottom plate on the TSVVS (and inversely). It's a more a question of thickness of the metal than a problem of dimensions...
Your disassembling is most intersting, Ulrich. I'm not skilful enough to risk such an operation on my camera... Perhaps you could give us some pictures. Of course, it's exciting to compare the same pieces Fed vs TSVVS...
All that to conclude that TSVVS were probably made in Germany. But by whom exactly?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Bill and Jacques,

ok, if it only 0.5mm I also think that it doesn't fit because of the thickness of the material or because of very small deformations of the body shell. By the way, the numbers stamped on the shutter and the bottom plate are also inside the body shell behind the film pressure plate and inside the body on the top where the rangefinder cam sits.

On mine the number is also scratched on two places of the lens mount, on the inner lens mount and on the back of the lens mount plate. A funny thing, there was a 90 scratched on, which is striked through, and the right number 85 is scratched in.

Jacques, just before you have posted your message I have reassembled the camera and because it was very hard work to fix the lens mount back I think, I will not dissassemlbe it the next days again :-) But I will do it as soon as possible. But you can see some of the differences on Yuris site at the bottom of the site:
http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/1/18.htm

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

I think the differences in size of the bodies between a FED and TSVVS is not just due to the thickness of the metal or any deformations of the body shell, but it was designed and manufactured using its own dimensions and was never made to be the same as, or interchangeable with a FED. Of course, just like the FED, it is made to be a Leica copy and so has a similar design.

If I had my cameras unpacked I could measure exactly the size of both the FED body and the TSVVS body. It may be somewhat more than 0.5mm in difference, I can't remember. When I unpack them I will make accurate measurements and post them if no one else does it first.

If you look on the DVDTECH page that Ulrich gave a link to, at the bottom, you will see that the TSVVS has many more differences than similarities with the FED, in design as well as in materials and quality of manufacturing.

Regards, Bill