TSVVS / VTS-VS Camera Discussion

Hello All,

So thanks to Steve Berkowitz I've finally had a chance to hold the TSVVS or VTS-VS in my own hands for a while and to play with it. From pictures it looks like a Soviet camera but here's my personal opinion after I've held it and you can disagree with me: No way in hell this camera was made anywhere in Soviet Union. I know, strong words, but I am convinced. The chrome is too fine and smooth, the leather is unlike anything I've ever seen come out from USSR, the shutter operated so smoothly after all these years, materials used are unlike anything - the brass body, the shutter dial engraving style, the shutter dial itself - it's unlike anything I've seen or handled or touched that ever come out from USSR, the assembly of the camera itself was almost perfect. When I was holding it and looking at it and winding and clicking it, I realized that the story of the factory Almaz actually making it cannot be true in my opinion. There is absolutely no way the factory that is not known to make any cameras before could EVER (EVER!) pull off the best finishing/looking/working camera I've ever seen or touched that was made in Soviet Union. Even KMZ with their best cameras could not approach the quality of manufacture of TSVVS when you look at it closely and even feel it when you wind it up and click it. The only people who could produce it would have to have at least decades of training and experience making cameras. It must be either Germans or as Steve suggested even possibly Japanese manufacture. It was either an order made to occupied Germans or Japanese to make these for Soviet upper echelon ranks or it was a stash of cameras somehow found in occupied Germany and re-stamped with Soviet symbolics. That is my opinion after I handled the camera. I think it's Zeiss-made.

Vlad

Hi Vlad,

I basically agree with you. I have often thought that the TSVVS - VTS-VS was actually made in Germany, most likely at a Zeiss workshop. The mount being similar to Contax, the small number impressed on the inside of the base-plate and shutter cage (just like Contax) and the use of Zeiss lenses, both pre-war and post-war, as well as the overall quality and the superb finish all lead to this conclusion, in my opinion.

One scenario is that it was commissioned to be made at a Zeiss workshop, by German craftsmen, in order for high ranking officials to be able to have a Soviet camera that was of the quality of the Leica mechanism and the Zeiss optics. In my opinion, since the Communist doctrine did not really officially allow the higher ranks to have better stuff, it was made for the Topographical Service officially, but given to Generals, Colonels, etc. since the Topographical Service probably didn't really have a need for a camera like this.

However, it is all supposition unless some documentation or actual eyewitness statement surfaces. It may be that there is little or no documentation due to the idea that it was made as a special thing for important people.

I can not see it as Soviet built in any way either. Just made and marked for Soviet Military!

Regards, Bill

some question and hypothesis ?

- are there any TVSS with the outer zeiss bayonet working ?
- since early TVSS all have prewar uncoated 1,5 lenses... could it be that they were build in Germany before or during the war... and re-engraved as soviet product...
- later piece being made somewhere by former (zeiss or else) employees...with modern lenses

let's be wild... imagine Zeiss engineer asked by the german military or a someone at the factory to make a leica lookalike... trying to be as light as a leica, but with zeiss bayonet... on the other hand Zeiss lenses were adapted for leica anyway... why wouldn't they explore both way to satisfy the military request ? (Zeiss lenses in LTM, and Leica bodies in Contax mount...). Zeiss would have done that secretly because even in wartime, germany was a capitalist country with patent legislation... so a Leica copy would have been prosecuted.
After the war, Nikon did it... a nikon S being a contax with a "soft" shutter curtain... but they didn't care for patent...and the mount was slightly different

In a way, TVSS would be the missing link...

Stephan

may be it's simpler

if the dates are really 1948,1949,1950... it could have been done in Germany like the "Jena" Contax with which it share lenses... in the same factory... if anyone has a "Jena contax" and a period TVSS it could be interesting to have a "metal" laboratory inspecting the alloy...

S.


Stephan

A very good idea, Stephan, as the Contax "Jena" is said to be heavier than the normal Contax II.

Jacques.

Stephan, Bill, both your theories seem much more plausible to me after I've actually handled the camera. I know we all have this gut feeling at this point after handling hundreds of different cameras from different parts of the world, that we can kind of say where it was made by the construction and quality of materials, and in this case just the overall feel of it screams non-Soviet. I agree Jena is the most probable source when theorizing, but what about this idea put forward by Steve that it may be Japanese?

Stephan, I only saw this one upclose, maybe Bill or Steve could answer your questions..

Cheers,
Vlad

the main problem is to get some metal ingeneer to analyse the metal... to see where it comes from...


Stephan

is anyone in contact with a university with a metallurgic department ?

Stephan

I've got an email from Alexey Nikitin about this thread. He had sent me some pictures of a 1950 TSVVS/VTSVS that was sold on Molotok.ru. He had talked with the owner of the camera on the phone. The owner had told him that when he was still a boy, his family lived in Germany and his father was an army man in Soviet army in the division that was stationed in Germany. His father had made a deal with some other ensign about buying an illegal camera TSVVS from warehouse there. And the camera No756 was bought in Germany for 15 soviet rubles in some military base. From the conversation Alexey understood that from that warehouse you could buy more than one TSVVS camera. The owner said the camera didn't take really good pictures, later his Zenit was better.

And here's Alexey opinion about the origins of TSVVS: it was very simply for Soviet command or civil higher ranks just to order 1000 cameras styled after FED from German captured firms with Soviet presentation symbolics. And since there is 1949 camera - 1950 means there was an additional order.

The threshold of serial #s from 1949 to 1950 is between #311(Alexey's) and #330 which is already 1950. This means about 330 pieces were in 1949 and the rest (670 pieces) in 1950. There is also different versions of font of the writing for the year, since approx #471 there is small font for the year. (he saw #372 with large and #471 with small).

Also he wrote me about Alexander Bronstein's camera that says to "Colonel Maksimov A.K. for long and exemplary military service in divisions VTS S.A. from head of VTS".

But I think we already talked about that, VTS is Miltary Topographical Service and S.A. is Soviet Army.

Cheers,
Vlad.

Vlad,

that sounds really interesting. So if the TSVVS was just an order of the soviets to build 1000 cameras in occupied germany that days there must be some german workers and engineers that have built and constructed them.
Maybe it's a good idea to ask the zeisshistorica.org if they know something about such an order?

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Hi Vlad and Hi to Alexey since you are watching this thread!

To me, this information from Alexey Nikitin sounds authentic and his source that he talked with personally would have no reason to make up a story like this. Alexey is a very knowledgeable and honest collector and was lucky and smart to get this information. Thanks Alexey and to Vlad also for relaying it to us!

Now, if we can figure out which factory in USSR Occupied Germany (if this is the case) made them! Possibly Zeiss Jena, but much research has been done on that factory and output during the time period and no one mentions the TSVVS... but still a possibility.



Regards, Bill

Very interesting indeed, this is the first of such type of "real" information that I've heard beyond the speculation of collectors.

Ulrich, if you have contacts with Zeisshistorica we would greatly appreciate any follow up on this! Being in Germany puts you into unique research position .

Cheers,
Vlad

Vlad, I don't have contacts to Zeisshistorica. And they are not located in Germany, they are in USA :-) Just take a look at their website:
http://zeisshistorica.org/
So I think that it it better when some native speaker contact them.

Ulrich

http://fotos.cconin.de

Oh I see . I may send them an email, I just meant in general that you may have better access to Zeiss experts in Germany, no?

Cheers,
Vlad.

I've shot Zeisshistorica an email, we'll see if they come back with anything, it would be awesome if they do!

Cheers,
Vlad

FYI, I've renamed this topic to be more general since it's tied to the Wiki entry.

cheers,
Vlad.

I have communicated back and forth with Mr. Larry Gubas of Zeisshistorica, and received a reply this morning from him that you may find interesting. Here's his letter:

quote:

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Hello Vlad,

I understand the point that information such as Jean Loup's can become dated quite quickly but it was an excellent starting point. As I said, I have no direct knowledge of this camera but rather most of what I know came from Dr. Mladek and him.

I do know a gentleman that was in Zeiss Jena for the time of the construction of the Jena Contax and he shared a great deal with me and I did interview a Zeiss engineer who was in charge of the physical move from Jena to Kiev for the Volga/Kiev camera but he was well over 90 years old when I met him nearly 6 years ago and has since died.

Neither of them mentioned this camera as a product of the work in Jena or Kiev but then I was unaware of this camera and did not ask the necessary question. my friend still lives in Jena but does not use a computer or email and so a question to him will take some time to transmit and receive. However, he was most thorough in his discussions with me and would be surprised to find that he had not mentioned it to me. I will check but it will take some time. He also worked in the photography department in Jena and Saalfeld for Zeiss and would have known if such a camera was manufactured there.

I would suspect that some Leitz craftsmen might have been gathered to go to Russia and improved the camera product of the Fed but that is just suspicion. The camera does seem to have a lot of Fed like elements. The use of Zeiss lenses on the Leica copies was part of an order to Zeiss Jena by the Russian officers after they arrived in Jena and Zeiss was familiar with the M 39 screw mount as they had manufactured Zeiss lenses for the Leica based on German military orders but the use of the lenses on this camera seems quite odd as it would seem to limit the range of the lenses.

Dr. Mladek has seen a good number of these cameras and has noticed a pressed metal numeric marking on an internal part which might prove helpful. He gave me images of these markings and the images of 3 cameras when I visited him nearly 6 years ago. I am presently limited in my ability to travel due to health reasons and must maintain my presence in my local surroundings for the present and so travel to visit him and others is out for the present.

I will contact you if I hear anything definitive from my friend in Jena.

Larry

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Just in addition to this topic, about lenses.
One of my friends made comparisons between Contax, Nikon rangefinder and TSVVS. And their lenses : can any lens mechanically be put on any body? (no question of depth of field here).

The answer is no. The TSVVS-Zeiss lens can be mounted on the two other bodies, not the reverse, even for the ordinary Zeiss Sonnar which cannot be put on the TSVVS. As if something inside the TSVVS mount was different from the Contax one (and Nikon's). But what exactly?

I have checked that but between TSVVS and Contax II: I don't have any Nikon. Strange...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

quote:

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Originally posted by Vlad

I have communicated back and forth with Mr. Larry Gubas of Zeisshistorica, and received a reply this morning from him that you may find interesting. Here's his letter:

quote:

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Dr. Mladek has seen a good number of these cameras and has noticed a pressed metal numeric marking on an internal part which might prove helpful. He gave me images of these markings and the images of 3 cameras when I visited him nearly 6 years ago.

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So what is this possibly helpful marking, very interested to hear

Best regards,
Juhani

On Steve's camera when you open a bottom plate it has a little "8" stamped into the bottom of shutter assembly.