TSVVS / VTS-VS Camera Discussion

I made a statement on the TVSS description based on the serial number of the lenses matched with the year of production of the cameras, and this statement opens a question ;-)

First : The f2 lenses are post war jena production... the 1,5 are 1938(prewar production)... and all those 1,5 are seen on earlier TVSS. Why did they use a prewar uncoated lens instead of an available post war coated lens ? being Jena or ZK... could those lenses date from the Ribentropp/Molotov agreement period ?
May be that some TVSS could be earlier than 1948 ?

Secondly : Are all TVSS bayonet the same ? As I see there are no external bayonet, the mount is an uncomplete contax mount with only the internal linkage ... (if not show examples)... or in 1948, They would have access to a stock of original contax bayonet at the factory (as in the early Kievs)... why did they design an incomplete system..? hence the absence of external bayonet forbids the use of biogon 35 and Sonnar 85/135 lenses...

My hypothese is that the TVSS was designed during the war or even before...

Stephan

Stephan,
Thanks for your very astute observation about the TSVVS.

I have both a 1949 and a 1950 model of the camera and will examine them to see if the mount is the same for both in every detail ... but I think it is.

I believe that there are some TSVVS cameras that may have been made before 1949. I am very interested in the mystery of where these cameras were made and have noticed some unusual traits to them. For example, they have impressed numbers on the bottom of the shutter cage, very much the way the Contax does.

I think your hypothesis is very interesting and a very good question to be investigated. These TSVVS are very different from the FED-1 and any other Russian camera that I know. Maybe they were designed during the war, or possibly right after the war. Maybe they were originally made in Germany? These are more questions that may be worthy of investigation.

Here is a link to the page about TSVVS on the DVD Tech site that may be intersting to you if you have not seen it, although the essay by Yuriy Davidenko about the origin of TSVVS has not been proved (or approved by other collectors as far as I know) and he gives no references as to where he has found this information from.

http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/fed.htm

Thank you for bringing this lens observation to our attention.

Regards, Bill

There is one assertion by Yuriy that is totally false : the use of various lenses... with the limited mount A tvss can only use 50mm lenses... and btw the contax mount is far more difficult to change than a LTM, even if it less prone to misbehaviour and pathologies ;-)

I need to see a real TVSS in order to assess if they are or not compatible with other focal length contax mount lenses...

Stephan

From what I heard there will be an exhaustive article with research and cited sources about the origins of the TSVVS in the new Viktor Suglob's book. It is kept currently under wraps until the book is out. Waiting anxiously!!

Stephan
1) As I know, 1.5 Sonnars were made in large quantities in the prewar. In Contax mount, Leica mount and unmounted! This was under Government requirements and were used on Army, Air Force and Gestapo.
Lots of them becamer war surplus when the war finished.
These lenses were employed in several cameras Wica from Austria, Opema from Czecoslovakia Balerio from Italy to say few. and even on The famous Jena Contax. See Asquini/Pegorari Several of them went to Russia as war indenization, and were also used.
Mr James Small may have further explanations.
2) TSVVS positively cannot receive other than normal Contax/Kiev lenses.
3) You are absolutely right on dating TSVVS from its Jena Sonnar f2 lenses. and so, the possible "TSVVS-2"? as I previously have done.
Regards LP

sonnar 1,5 were made in quantity but I doubt that a 1938 batch would have been available in 1945... and if the Almaz connection is right why would they go for uncoated when coated batches were available...

Pre-45 Coated Sonnars 1,5 T were indeed largely military lenses, not the uncoated version... but they have no military marks...



Stephan

Stephan
In order to complicate things:
at http://www.novacon.com.br/odditycameras/Opema.htm there is a 1951 Opema with un uncoated 1.5 Sonnar 5.8cm! these cameras from small batch used pre-war CZ lenses in original Meopta mounts!
Regards LP

sonnars are complicated...

but it doesnt explain why they used non coated lenses on a camera that would have been the nec plus ultra of societ photography when they are supposed to be constructed...

and why they didn't take the external bayonette option...

Stephan

Stephan
That is true but at post war period, coated lenses were not so important. See that 1947 FED/Zorki came with uncoated FED lenses (not ZK lenses, -coated from the begining) and also several german lenses in German cameras. In that era American Wollensak. Elgeet , Baush&Lomb and kodak lenssed were "lumenized" "Balcoated" and "Wolcoated" much more as strong commercial selling points.

In 1946/1947 Mrs Cook&Perkings from England produced special adapters to use inner and outer RF Contax bayonet lenses on Leica. In 1950, Orion Miranda produced this same item together "Mirax" a reflex cage that transforms both Leica and Contax into a reflex camera.Also furnished was a special short mount 135mm lens.
Russians already had the Zenit camera.
LP

I totally agree with you, Luis.
Before the fifties, the fact to have a lens coated or not was not of great importance. But after, it was different with coloured pictures...
I bought a Fed-Zorki 1948 with a non original coated lens (K360 for JLP) some months ago. The seller told me that the owner -his father- had changed the lens to make coloured dias...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Unrelated topic to previous discussion: This had never came up what but what are your all opinion in regards to JLP saying that TSVVS was made by FED when Ministry of Aeronautical Affairs (quoting..)"bestowed on FED a few hundred Zeiss Sonnar lenses, a tiny part of the "war booty" recovered in Germany by the Red Army"? Was this theory pretty much disproved?

Vlad

Vlad
Certainly TSVVS cameras were never built at FED Factory. Even they managed together The War Air force. This affirmation I sustain since I was a simple observer at Zeiss distributor in Brazil when I was only 12. and learned to repair such cameras Then, all Zeiss cameras from Contax to the simplest Nettar had similar characteristics , Chrome, enamel, types of leatherette , screw standards, rivets, mirrors and finder lenses.
All FEDs and all TSVVSs, differ completely in thier materials although they have similar design. They were done at different factories by different engeneers.
The same way the TSVVS2? although share the same tecnical lay out of FED 2 although are completely different in their choice of materials workmanship and construction.

the f2 lenses on the tvss are not warbooty lens... but post war (1948) Jena production (above 3000000)

If it would have been war booty they would have been 28***** or 29*****... THose lenses were modified to ZK lenses but kept their number on the rear lens part...

By the way I just spotted a Contax mount f2 collapsible in the 293**** from a batch that should have been ZKised...

Stephan

I see! Thank you both! I thought that much, we just never brought it up here, wanted to hear your thoughts..

Luiz, you're still at it with the TSVVS-2, eh?

Vlad
If you want I will show you a TSVVS 3!
LP

Here are some other TSVVS cases, including one from Alexander Bronstein that has an engraved plaque on it! The first photo is one of my cameras.









Regards, Bill

Very interesting!
Could somebody translate what is said on this plaque? Thanks!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Jacques, I would be happy to translate it, but it's too small and fuzzy.. Bill, is there a better image by any chance?

Vlad

OK, I blew it up in Photoshop and whatever I could make out says "To Colonel Maksimov for [something something, probably good]service in VTS (Voyenno Transportnih Sluzhb - Military Transport Services, I would assume or Technical Services) from the chief of VTS, December something, 1957"...

Vlad

1957? A used camera or very old stock even in USSR?

Smena rules

Thanks, Vlad.
Surprising...

Jacques.