Fed Berdsk - Known Examples

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Originally posted by Lenny

From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.

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If we calculate with month IV (April) instead of VI (June) we will get an amazing result. What I quoted above will change to THIS.

From #164716 till #168018 they produced 750 cameras per week.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 780 per week.
Amazing right

It's just a human mistake, who is used to write with roman figures.

What can I say?
You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!

I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...

Jacques.

Jacques, there could be other possibilities.
Imagine, camera #168018 was produced and didn't pass the quality control, so it had to be repaired.
We should follow of course the passports we have, but not all. If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.

Also we have to understand how the serials were produced. For examle serial #160000 was engraved and was put in an big empty bucket. Later #160999 was engraved and was put on top of the bucket which is now full of engraved top plates. Next step in production is assembling. It starts with the top plate on top of the bucket, #160999. Much later top plate #160000 was assembled.

That's why passports #180024 and #181100 can both be true, even if passport #181100 was written the day before. But we calculate with #180024 till evacuation which is much harder than if we calculated with #181100.

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If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.

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Just no.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

You are funny, Lenny. You chose the passports which agree you. And you ask me to forget two of them. But I cannot!

I think we have questions to put concerning the passports and their exact correlation with cameras. This period june/september 1941 was exceptional, and Fed could have used urgency procedures...

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Jacques, there is no correct correlation as some might think. As we can see, #181100 was produced 1 day before #180024. But we are very correct if we say they were both made in July. #168018 is just an bad example to calculate with, but we know they were not able to produce 7100 cameras within 3 days. We know it's impossible to produce cameras consecutive to their serials. Then there is the quality control which put some cameras on hold. We are pretty much on the right side with all other passports.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

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If the majority of passport match our calculation we are pretty much on the right side.

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Just no.

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Then you have to believe that they produced 7100 cameras in 3 days (#168018-#175118). And in this case you are VERY WRONG.

And you have to believe that they produced 3302 cameras in 92 days (#164716-#168018).

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.

We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.

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#164716 is Lesopark 54 too. I have a photo.

We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.

But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.


We just have to try and understand. Not to correct anything.

But all that is boring. Once more time, that turns into a personal quarrel. I am not interested.

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Yes, we have to understand that lower serial numbers are also at the bottom of the bucket during production and will be assembled later. We have to understand that quality control can put cameras on hold. We have to understand that there are not only engraving errors with digits missing or digits added, there can also be errors when writting VI instead of IV on a passport. But all information together shows a very accurate picture which is enough to know what kind of production was possible at that time.

Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets, quality control and errors of writing! It's a long time since I have been keen on Feds, and I never saw so clearly how they worked inside the factory. Thanks!

That said, once more, it is always not completely impossible that Fed 1e were entirely made in Kharkov. But, even if there can be a mistake (!), I go on doubting, specially for the last 2-3000 last ones for which we don't have passport. We can suppose that the emergency was rather on the evacuation. But I repeat myself and now this discussion is finished for me, unless there is a new fact, of course!

Jacques, I forgot where I saw it, but I saw a photo of Zorki production when they molded the top plates I think, and there was a bucket so big that a person could hide in it Sure Zorki was real mass production.

Jacques, it seems you never saw passport #168018. I can tell you, I never saw it too. I might have gotten the information about #168018 from the wiki. As long as we don't have prove that this passport exists we should put the information on hold. Maybe someone from the BFM put that information there. Do you know the BFM, the Berdsk Fake Mafia. Then this Mafia spread the news that even Fed-1d were produced in Berdsk and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.

But I can tell you, I saw the passport #164716.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.


Bravo for this personal interpretation with buckets

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Jacques, please check Princelle's book, page 124 ok, they don't look like buckets, more like container

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Originally posted by Lenny

...and they set up a table with information about Joschkar-Ola, which Zoom calls a not reliable sourse and a piece made in delirium.

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The Kinap plant from Odessa was transferred to the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola.
Used documents:
GKO Order No.374ss -- August 2, 1941.
GKO Order No.681ss -- September 16, 1941.
Cited also: The Economic Council of the SNK USSR Order No.1880-564s -- December 6, 1940.
Source: Russian State Archive of Socio-Political History (RGASPI), fund (фонд): 644, inventory (опись): 2, cases (дело): 10 (list 39, par. 16) and 18 (list 84).

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Originally posted by Jacques M.


BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.

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So the passports of #175118 and #175524 were written on the same day. At first sight people might think that they also wrote all other passports between those two serials on the same day. But that might not be the case. Cameras didn't finish production consecutive to their serials. They were only consecutive engraved during production.

These 2 cameras finished production 12 weeks before evacuation. A production of #183892 (last 1e in the wiki) before evacuation seems possible. They were able to produce 9000 cameras in 12 weeks.

Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.

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Originally posted by elnur

Good evening guys! why do you think that this is the date of manufacture? I now intended that this date of packaging. and the production of the marriage took place, in consequence of that, some parties came back to troubleshoot.

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Hello Elnur,

I don't exactly understand what you want to say,
but congratulations to your FIRST POST.

Welcome Elnur, it's great to have another big FED expert in our midst! What Elnur is trying to say ( I had earlier conversation with him) is that the dates on passports are not the dates of manufacture but the dates of sale. Not all of batches of these cameras would get sold at the same time. These dates on passports are filled in when the cameras are sold, sometimes they would be sold in different sequence and sometimes would sit on shelves of the store for a while so the dates are not actual manufacture dates. Also when cameras are returned to factory for repair because of defects they would get issued new dates on passports.

It's a pleasure and honor to have you here, Elnur! I hope to see more of your participation!

Vlad

Thanks Elnur.
This makes sense, that the passports were written when the cameras were packaged for sale.
It doesn't make sense that passport dates were written in advance, because once they needed to package the cameras they would need to search for the passports, when writing a passport just takes 1 minute.
Of course the cameras were not sold consecutive to their serial numbers. Cameras with higher serials could be sold earlier.

Later this might have changed little bit when they only wrote the month and year in the passports.

Thanks, Vlad, and welcome to you, Elnur!

So, passports show the date of sale. That completely changes the point of view, of course! No possibility to calculate a precise production from the serial numbers, for example. And the 1e were very probably made entirely before the evacuation. No more problem, unless perhaps about the last ones. Were they sold too? When? Always before evacuation? Or reserved to the Red Army, as I had guessed somewhere, half by joke?

No doubt you will help us to put some missing pieces on this entangled puzzle, Elnur. Thanks...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Thank You all for the warm welcome! I am very pleased )
About packing cameras. I'm certainly not a historian, and do not have enough facts to say it all. But a fresh idea will not harm us. I did not mean that the passports were written in advance. But on the contrary that there had been a batch of cameras, which later had to undergo some checking. After the devices are tested, Packed and were issued certificates. And the devices that were problematic were returned for repair. And possibly from the earlier numbers, but with the late date in the certificate. I think that's why there's the confusion.