Fed Berdsk - Known Examples

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Originally posted by Lenny

Thanks to Zoom and I found this:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n374
Order #374 from August 2nd, 1941. Building a new plant #297 in Yoschkar-Ola Mari ASSR now called Mari Machine Works.

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Bravo!

Jacques.

In the wiki of Fed-1e was stated that according to Princelle the evacuation started on September 5th, 1941.
But there's order #681. The evacuation was ordered on September 16th.

http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n681

11 more days to produce the last Fed-1e. Now they needed only to produce 586 cameras per week if #183892 is the last Fed-1e. That's pretty doable and gives time for even a #185xxx.

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Originally posted by Alfa2


This will not solve our problem but I saw FED produced shortly after 210 000. It had vulcanite from FED NKAP. Maybe it will be possible to find it and place a photo here.

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Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.

Alexey, Lenny, I'm still hung up on the Yoshkar-Ola.. Berdsk is 2500km east of that city! I guess it's possible that FED with its equipment didn't fit entirely into Yoshkar-Ola plant and was moved further and camera/optical division ended up in Berdsk.. strange..

Jacques, I think what I changed and added in the wiki still leaves room for phantasies if someone want to have some. But I think we should not hide the facts and the facts are massive. I think I didn't put my opinion into the wiki, but facts. Also corrected some mistakes and everything started with the database which was a mess before. But everybody is free and should add other facts to the wiki, it's important, that's also why we have this interesting thread.
- I calculated how many cameras could have been produced till evacuation, a #185000 would be possible.
- Besides that we know passports and I was same skeptical that most passports came from DVD. But they look original to me, and they match the timeline. #180024 is not a passport, at least not what I saw, but even without it calculations would come to the same results.
- There is this photo from Berdsk stating they produced the FIRST Fed in January/Febuary 1946.
- Before, as Zoom told us, they were not allowed to produce cameras, order #2445. The photo mentioning the FIRST Fed makes sense.
- The FED equipment, engineers and technicians were transferred to KMZ and KOMZ in late 1942, order #2445.
- I have my own late Fed-1e now, I'm sure it's an original one, it looks so good, works so well, I doubt they could have made it in Berdsk from scratch.
- I left the passage in the wiki that even Fed-1d with serials up to #176000 could be made in Berdsk. This possibility is really funny now. With the information we have now this passage would have never been posted in the wiki.
Facts which all make sense together.

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Originally posted by Niko80


Also I'd like to point out that I am now the owner of the FED"e" #180024 with the corresponding documents. If there is any information I can provide just let me know.

Regards,
Christian

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Hi Christian,
the documents I saw are not a dated passport. What I saw was a small paper dated 31/July/1941, maybe a documentation that the camera was complete and checked. Are there other dated documents?
Thanks

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Originally posted by Lenny

quote:

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Originally posted by Alfa2


This will not solve our problem but I saw FED produced shortly after 210 000. It had vulcanite from FED NKAP. Maybe it will be possible to find it and place a photo here.

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Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.

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Lenny! Camera ФЭД №210340 have classical vulcanite.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lenny

Alfa, why do you want a photo, vulcanite housings can easily be changed.
There is #210235 with stretched stripes vulcanite as Jacques would call it
and also #200347 with snowflake vulcanite as Alexey would call it.

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Sorry, I have written this not exactely clear. I meant I should find my camera and place a photo here. But problem for me is to find the camera because I don't know where I have it. I haven't seen the FED for many years.

Lenny,

I don't say you are wrong. I just say you are too in a hurry.
Of course,you do what you want with the wiki. As anybody who is able to add something. Or to change something if he is not OK with what you wrote. As for me, I will never "correct" what is written by somebody else, without discussion, and it's for me a question of principle. And of credibility too. Note that I'm not the author of the Fed 1e page...

The wiki is a space of certitude, and the threads a space of discussion. So, now, about what is written.

-No calculation will tell us exactly what happened. We just can be sure that the material for some 10000 1e were made at Kharkov before september 1941. We cannot be sure where the cameras were mounted. All or partly in Kharkov? That's the point.
-I don't understand your skepticism about the Fed S 180024. It's one of the rare original documents, and you doubt of it.
-The photo was taken at Berdsk's. Right. But we don't know in which conditions. Nor what the different persons do exactly. They look much more engineers presenting cameras. Publicity or else? And which camera?
-Zoom is OK, of course. Nevertheless, I point that he changed his mind lately. Before, it was impossible, for him, to accept that KMZ had received any parts from Fed.
-I'm happy to know that the Fed equipment was, at least partially, tranferred to KMZ: it is what I guessed. But is it now a fact or always an affirmation?

I'm happy for you that you have your own original 1e. I think too that's important to have cameras in the hands to write about them. As for me, I think (guess!) that:
-The parts for 1e-s were totally made before the september 1941 at Kharkov.
-They were mounted totally or partially in Kharkov,
-Some Feds could have been mounted at Berdsk, during the war, for local or other reasons,
-KMZ and Arsenal received Fed parts to mount their own Fed-KMZ and Fed-Arsenal. But what? And through which ways?
-Red Flags were made in 1946 at Berdsk's.

A bit worried by this discussion. I will let you with your "facts" and the wiki. But I always keep some reasonable doubts. One of them being: why were these cameras called "Berdsk" if none of them were made at Berdsk? And why were the NKVD 1d (between 173600/176000) called "return from Berdsk"? Only imagination or fantasy?

Jacques,
I think it was time to update something. There will never be the final version and we can change everything at any time. If anybody finds a mistake in the wiki it should be corrected directly. It's impossible to know who wrote what in the wiki, at least for me.

What is the highest serial number for a 1e in your database? If there were so many top plates made unassembled we should have found them already. As I said before, left over parts were transferred to KMZ and they recycled everything.

I ask about the passport of #180024 because someone mentioned it in the wiki. If there is no passport I would like to correct the mistake. I think too that the papers I saw about #180024 look original, I don't doubt them, I used them for my calculation. I only would like to be correct in the wiki.

Jacques, you often talk about the shutter crates, that some are made of brass and some of alloy. Which parts do you check, only the base plate of the shutter crate? You said #115000 till #184000 are made of alloy, #200000 till #223000 are made of brass. So brass crates should be postwar, right. I just checked some of my Feds and think there might be something interesting to talk about. Seems my #182393 is brass and should be postwar then. My #221333 is alloy, my #242xxx is brass. I need to check some others. Maybe Fed used both types at the same time.

Jacques, do not worry! I'll try to answer your questions on my website. The article will be in Russian, but I think if Vlad and our other guys will help all to translate it into English.

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Originally posted by Alfa2


Sorry, I have written this not exactely clear. I meant I should find my camera and place a photo here. But problem for me is to find the camera because I don't know where I have it. I haven't seen the FED for many years.

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Don't say sorry Alfa, search for it tomorrow and everything is fine. I want to see it

I will try to search for it on the coming weekend.
Regarding vulcanite there are some rules but there are exceptions too. I saw original vulcanite of FED NKVD but not black, the colour was like coffe with milk. We had discussion about it with my colleague - art historian who is really interesred in old FEDs.

Lenny,

OK,OK.
For me, what is written is conclusive. I am of the generation of paper which could not change their reference books several times a year...

That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?

Now, my doubts. I had made the same calculation as you and my personal conclusions were just at the opposite. With the declaration of war and the run of the German Army towards the east, it seemed difficult to prepare the evacuation in emergency, while making around 4000 cameras, all that in two months or so. It's why I think Fed could have achieved quickly all the parts for the entire Fed e series, without mounting all of them. The final mounting job for the remaining batch of cameras could have been made at Berdsk's or elsewhere: not difficult when all the needed parts are available.

That said, you may be right too.

In fact, I globally think that we miss original documents to be as affirmative as you are. Paradoxally, the best documented camera in this period is the Fed-Arsenal! For the moment, and as far as I know...

I check my cameras about your brass/alloy question.

After a quick glance, I confirm what I have already written:
- brass shutter crates up to s/n c. 115000,
- alloy up to the end of 1e series,
- brass for my personal NKAP Red Flag,
- brass for the 1f series, up to 250000,
- alloy after.

Note that the limits are those I observe on my personal cameras. And certainly, there could be mixed parts, specially after WW2.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

After a quick glance, I confirm what I have already written:
- brass shutter crates up to s/n c. 115000,
- alloy up to the end of 1e series,
- brass for my personal NKAP Red Flag,
- brass for the 1f series, up to 250000,
- alloy after.

Note that the limits are those I observe on my personal cameras. And certainly, there could be mixed parts, specially after WW2.

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Thanks Jacques,

so you check only the bottom plate of the shutter crate, right.
Strange, so my #182393 could be a fake which I doubt, could be postwar which I doubt too, and my #221333 is also a mystery. Both I got very cheap

We need more samples for brass and alloy crates in the serial range #170.000 till #250.000 please.

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Originally posted by Lenny
Thanks to Zoom and I found this:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n374

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You're welcome. But I don't understand why the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola emerged in the discussion...
The plant No.296 NKAP was sent to Berdsk by the GKO Order No.681.
Btw., the text of the GKO Order No.2445 can be found here: http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html

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Originally posted by Zoom

But I don't understand why the plant No.297 NKV in Yoshkar-Ola emerged in the discussion...
The plant No.296 NKAP was sent to Berdsk by the GKO Order No.681.

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Hello Zoom,

02.08.1941 they started building plant #297 Yoschkar-Ola (order #374).
16.09.1941 they ordered the evacuation to Berdsk (order #681) when building the new Yoschkar-Ola plant wasn't finished yet.

Yoschkar-Ola might be on the way to Berdsk and at some point in time the new plant was built. If there is a new plant available it saves much time to store the Fed equipment there.

Then there is the paper Alexey posted. Maybe there are some orders we don't know about yet.

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Originally posted by Lenny

Yoschkar-Ola might be on the way to Berdsk...

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I do not know how to comment on it...
Nope.

P. S. It is impossible to consider this delirium:
http://ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg
as a reliable source!

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Originally posted by Zoom

It is impossible to consider this delirium:
http://ussrphoto.com/UserContent/352016_IMG_0002.jpg
as a reliable source!

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Now I see, it's page 88 from a book.
Which book is it?
The 1200 camera book?