Fed Berdsk - Known Examples

Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers

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Originally posted by geoffox23

Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers

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Yes! Thanks. Jacques.

geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000.

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Originally posted by levonsa

geoffox23 thanks for the help! I'm a little tired to explain to the children about the new post-war numbering lenses. By the way the camera itself will start with the new numbering 210,000.

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Jacques.

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Originally posted by geoffox23

Lenny
You are comparing prewar with postwar numbering.
Postwar, lens numbering restarted and seems to have no logical system to tie to bodies.
Cheers

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No, I'm not comparing them, but there should be only ONE serial for each lens and not hundrets. To me, this is a kind of batch number, especially when it's not stamped at the lock.

For example, how did KMZ arrange the serial numbers. There could be TWO I-22 with the same serial #5211929, but one is with 'mm' from 1952 and the other is with 'cm' from 1955. It's still possible to separate them. There is only ONE serial for each I-22.
These I-22 are postwar too and are interchangeable on all Zorkis and each has it's own serial and isn't tied to any body.

Maybe a lens serial number wasn't important for Fed at some point. There are even 50/2 lenses without serial number before the war. It seems Fed didn't need the serials and the numbers stamped have a special meaning, for example to help regulation.

Then there is the girl who has to package the cameras and to write the passport and she writes what is given. But it's not a serial number!!!

Of course the serial numbers had a great importance for Fed! Like of any FSU production! If some (rare) lenses don't have numbers, we don't know why.

At this point, I don't understand really what we say, but perhaps it's not important
I just point that the first Fed lenses were 1 turn ones. They were numbered in very tiny ciphers too, which cannot be confused with postwar ones.

That said, by the passport showed by Alexey, the "209" seems a serial number, or I don't understand what is written before. It's "objective = lens", no? Or can it really be "batch of objectives?" Or anything else? We have to take that in consideration and think of what it will lead to. For me, at least, rather than thinking of who had written that...

Jacques.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

That said, I agree with you at, let us say 90% with what you wrote. Especially about Berdsks which were not made at Berdsk and KMZ which used Fed parts. I had said all that (I was not alone!) in 2013 and earlier. I just wonder what happened so that these ideas have something of official now? Zoom's article? With all the respect due to him, it's not enough. Proofs need documents, and I don't see any. Perhaps I missed something?

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I did not notice right away ... If we are talking about the article "ZENIT: prehistory", then there is all based on the documents.

Zoom,

Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war. My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?

Thanks. Jacques.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

Happy to know that there are documents which prove that there were no Fed made at Berdsk during the war.

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This article is not about the production of cameras in Berdsk. But, indeed, the FED production on the plant No.296 NKAP has been discontinued. The plant is fully switched to military production.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

My question was in fact more extensive: can we affirm that there were no Fed mounted during the war, at Berdsk or elsewhere? Are there documents too to prove that?

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The FED factory (No.296 NKAP) gave all its optical part according the GKO order No.2445 (23 October 1942).
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-2445.html
All optical equipment, materials and so on were taken away. Nevertheless, a certain number of cameras left. According to the factory's history book, the plant began to assemble cameras in 1946, as I remember. But there is no documentary evidence to the cameras assembly before February 1946...

Link does not work

http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252016_error.png

reimaging




http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1252016_error1.png

Thanks Zoom.
So, we are always at the same point, more or less. If I try to summarize:

All the Fed 1e could have been completely produced at Kharkov before evacuation. That said, the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 164716 : 18/3/41,
- s/n 168018 : 18/6/41,
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 175524 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
- s/n 180024 (S):31/7/41.
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible. Were some cameras mounted elsewhere? Or are there "big" holes in the numbering, as the JLP suggests?

It is unlikely that cameras were produced at Berdsk's plant during the war. On the other hand, it's not completely impossible that some were only mounted from parts coming from Kharkov, after the evacuation.

All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942. So, KMZ too could have played his part concerning the mounting of Fed 1e after the war. After all, there is no real difference in quality between Fed-Zorkis and Fed 1e.

Berdsk produced the NKAP "Red Flag", probably from already existing spare parts, in 1946.

Arsenal produced the Fed-Arsenal in 1946-47, in very small numbers, from existing and "home" made parts.

Fed-Kharkov resumed the production in june 1948 (the first Fed 1f).

What an entangled story... The main question remains of course the place of production/mounting for the 1e. We only have hypothesis, absolutely no certitude... Certainly, we miss a major fact?

Amitiйs. Jacques.

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Originally posted by Luiz Paracampo

Link does not work

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Corrected, sorry.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.


All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.

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No. A personnel only. Their number is not known (a list of the names is incomplete). A few dozen people (maximum)...

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

the timing seems unrealistic by the passports we have (I have added dates and numbers found on Alexey's site):
- s/n 175118 : 21/6/41,
- s/n 181100 : 30/7/41,
To produce 12000 cameras in 45 days is impossible.

All the remaining materials were transferred to Krasnogorsk in 1942.

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Jacques, as I understood it the Fed equipment was transferred to KOMZ in November 1942 and was stored there till it was transferred to Arsenal in Febuary 1945. KMZ might have gotten everything after Arsenal stopped producing as Altix assumed.

Why do you think of 12000 cameras?

Where did you find those 2 passports?

Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.

It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.

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Why do you think of 12000 cameras?

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181100 - 168018 # 13000 cameras in 42 days. Of course impossible.
And 7000 cameras in 3 days it's impossible too!
The passport of the S s/n 180024 was established on a Kharkov paper. We don't know for the others.

Of course, the passports can have been filled in a hurry after the parts were made for the corresponding cameras. But it doesn't enlighten the whole question.

We have a real problem of comprehension between number of cameras/passports/location of production concerning these Fed 1e.


Jacques.

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Originally posted by Lenny

Jacques, now I understand why 12000. Forget about this passport #168018, it is out off the line of other passports.

It could simply be that they wrote 18 VI 1941 instead of 18 IV 1941 for #168018.

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There, I cannot follow you. I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them. Even if they don't make us pleasure!

BTW, I have found, always on Alexey's site, the s/n 175524, with the same date of 21/6/41... It goes towards the same way. I add it in my precedent listing.

Jacques.

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Originally posted by Jacques M.

I postule that the only way to understand the situation is to follow the documents we have, not to criticize them.

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Of course, but we have to check if the numbers are possible.
From #164716 till #168018 they produced 252 cameras per week according to the passports, very less.
From #168018 till #175118 they produced 17750 per week. Easy to recognize a mistake here.
But from #164716 till #175118 they produced 765 cameras per week. This is possible and seems very accurate.
Just forget about passport #168018. Also forget about passport #181100. Calculate from #180024 till the last in the wiki #183892 and it's 586 cameras per week till evacuation.
Now if we calculate with 765 per week from #180024 till evacuation a camera #185073 could be possible. So we are pretty much on the safe side that all were produced in Kharkov before evacuation.