Fed Berdsk - Known Examples

before I mess up this katalog, it was one camera on eBay #280190465127:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=280190465127&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=018


I'm not sure if it should go in it.

Seems like it should go in as the serial number is in the correct range and what the seller says about the engraving seems right also.

Regards, Bill

Hello,

It seems we must be careful with the limits 1d/1e.
I already saw several Fed 1 engraved 1d in the #173600/176000. Princelle points them in his book (he says #174000-178000). Probably some 1d pre engraved covers sent to Berdsk and put together there. They are really scarce, but it would be fine to check before putting on a list.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

So I am completely lost people... I got 2 books in front of me - Asquini/Pegorari and Princelle 2nd edition:

I also have this camera #177511

Princelle says that these cameras were produced in Siberia with serials on 1e 173600/174000 - c. 183000 and up. So I would assume Berdsk.
Cladio and Albino says the following about the same range: "Towards the end of 1946 the returned to Kharkov is organized and production slowly resumes. Only in 1947 it will be possible to return to full production" ... errrrrr... so while organizing in Kharkov, Berdsk is meanwhile producing this model? I'm confused.. what is the latest news on that? So according to Asquini/Pegorari the 1e is not Berdsk at all?!

Thanks!
Vlad.

Hi Vlad,
Not an easy question. But this camera -1e type- is called "Berdsk" because we decided so. We, that is to say probably JLP, but not the factory.
In fact, Berdsk is not written on the covers: there is only "made in the factory of FE Dzerjinski, Kharkov".
We can only suppose that some cameras were put together at Berdsk from spares coming from Kharkov: perhaps these rare Fed 1d engraved CCCP after 173600-174000 (up to c. 176000 for some). The real production will begin again in 1946 with those 1e, maybe at Berdsk first then in Kharkov (from 173600-174000 too).

It would be logical, but nothing is sure!

Amitiйs. Jacques.

quote:

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From Wiki:
A fairly small number of FED 1 cameras manufactured during wartime 1941-1945 when FED factory was evacuated from Kharkov to Berdsk.

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These cameras theoretically could be manufactured in 1942 year (up to October, but not later!), and in the 1945--1946 years (may be from September 1945 to October 1946, but not later again). A two variants are most realistic:
1. Only in 1942 year.
2. Only at the beginning of 1946 year.

I agree with your dates, Zoom.
Between the two (and after and probably before), Fed worked mainly for aeronautics, hence the NKAP "Red Flag" in 1948 and the TSVVS, if it was made by Fed.

Jacques.

One of the most helpful things in Princelle iare the "Benchmarks" notes he adds. For this case, I have noticed he writes (below the entry for the "RED FLAG - N.K.A.P."):

"Benchmarks: The FED "RED FLAG" # 201280 is delivered with a passport printed in Berdsk and countersigned the 19 August 1946."

So, I think if a passport was printed in Berdsk in 1946 then the RED FLAG camera (at least the first 1200) may have been made in Berdsk.

Also, comparing the BERSK cameras with the RED FLAG - KNAP FED you will notice many differences in the parts (the castings look different, for example, of the rangefinder housing) and the finish is also much different. So I suspect that the RED FLAGS were actually made in Berdsk when the old parts from Kharkov ran out and the next FED to come out from Kharkov was probably FED-1f.

The "Berdsk" FEDs were probably assembled in Bersk .... maybe in 1942, and sporadically throughout the war, when they were needed, but by 1945 the parts originally made (and engraved) in Kharkov were running out so a new production line had to be built and the new cameras produced were the "RED FLAG - KNAP".

So I think all FEDs with the Berdsk style engraving, and some with the earlier style engraving were assembled in Berdsk. I also think that it is possible that cameras were assembled in Berdsk, more by hand than assembly line, sporadically throughout the war.

But, all is hypothetical and based on some logic, unless more examples with passports are known (and even then only if the passports tell the place of construction or signing).

Regards, Bill

Hi Bill,
About passports, DVD show the passport of an S eBerdsk with 31/07/1941 as a date. It would fit your hypothesis. But the date is very next to the evacuation.
It seems the paper was made in Kharkov.

Amitiйs. Jacques.

quote:

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Originally posted by nightphoto


The "Berdsk" FEDs were probably assembled in Bersk .... maybe in 1942, and sporadically throughout the war, when they were needed, but by 1945 the parts originally made (and engraved) in Kharkov were running out so a new production line had to be built and the new cameras produced were the "RED FLAG - KNAP".

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About a "sporadically throughout the war"...
It was one document listed there (page in Russian):
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html#n2445 ...

This is the GKO (The State Committee of Defense) Decision (Order) No.2445 from October, 23rd, 1942. "About allocation of optical-mechanical manufacture from structure of factory number 296 NKAP and its transfer to NKV system".

So, from the October, 1942 according this Order the FED factory (number 296 NKAP) had no opportunities, nor the rights to make a cameras. Up to the ~1946 year, as we know...

Thanks Zoom, that is an interesting reference and I will read it in translation. Now I see why you have said no manufacture at this time (end of '42 - beginning of '46). So, does it mean that the parts just sat there in Berdsk for 1943-1945 ?



Regards, Bill

quote:

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Originally posted by nightphoto


So, does it mean that the parts just sat there in Berdsk for 1943-1945 ?

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Possibly so. While remains not clear (as there is no text of the order) to whom this optical manufacture (and in what volumes and so on) was transferred... How the optical manufacture was carried out is not clearly too...

P.S. I think, that no return at all existed. Manufacture was restored in Kharkov from scratch.

Yes, I think manufacture was restored from scratch too ... because of the big difference from FED- KNAP to the new FED. Maybe FED had some help in setting up the new production from KMZ who already were in production with FED-Zorki & early Zorki-1 ?

Regards, Bill

Now you got me a bit mixed up, but then again it doesn't take too much to mix me up.

I own what I beleive to be a Berdsk-S, #178482.

This particular camera is one of the oldest pieces in my Russian Camera collection. I bought it in 2000.

Now, what am I to look for? Are we checking for authenticity?

Thanks,
Steve

About the passports, if you could have a look at the Berdsk S # 180024 of DVD,
-URL http://www.dvdtechcameras.com/collect/fed/fed.htm
-then click on FED S New,
-then go to the last one (before, there are several very strange S...)

The passport is interesting as it shows this curious date -31 VII 1941. Would anybody be kind enough to translate the interesting parts of it (titles, I guess)? Perhaps it would help us to know the origins and dates of these cameras.

Then I agree with Bill about connections between Fed and Zorki. For example, the Fed-KMZ we know, numerous Fed-Zorki and (as it seems)some early Zorki 1a were equipped with the 1/1000th shutter. These shutters were certainly coming from Fed as KMZ never used them after on their 1 series. And the first Fed-Zorki seem to be twins of the last Fed...

But no certitude, as usual...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Hi Steve,
Your camera is in the right serial number range and although the FED-S Berdsk is rare, a number of examples are known and I have not seen fakes of it. So we are not so much talking about authenticity, but more about where these cameras, as well as the cameras that came after them, were made. Where they made in Kharkov or Berdsk, and when? So it is more a matter of history than authenticity.

Jacques,
I can read that the passport for camera (FED "Berdsk") serial number 180024 gives an address of "Kharkov, Lesnopark 54"
and also states "NKVD - CCCP ... Kharkovski Kombinat of F.E. Djerzinski". Also that it is a "FED-S". So probably no doubt this camera was finished before any move to Berdsk. Probably just before the move ... or at least they were still using this type of passport (who knows when they would actually make new passports for the new location?

Regards, Bill

Fascinating! But I'm even more confused now.. wasn't it established that the FED-S camera serial #s were mixed in with regular FED 1's? How in the world then a 1800024 FED-S was made in 1941 (DVD's passport)??? Mine is an earlier serial # than this one and that means that it was made before 1941? Then... how can it be Berdsk? Unless I'm missing something about correlation of FED-S serials vs regular serials.. were specific blocks allocated to FED-S ahead of time so the timeline on those is different than regular FEDs and it does not fall under the timeline established by JLP?

Hi Vlad,
Yes, if your serial number is earlier than 180024 (you added an extra "0" in your post above)then your camera was made earlier than that camera!
FED-S occurs as early as 1938 and as late as 1941 for sure (possibly later if some were assembled in Berdsk which is at this time unknown). So there are FED-S cameras that are: FED-1 type C, FED-1 type D, FED-1 type E (Berdsk).

FED-S can be any of those and will have the characteristics of those variations, but will also have 1/1000th speed and the f.2 / 50mm lens ( FED-S must have both as they were made with 1/1000 speed and issued with the f.2 lens).

Look at our list on the WIKI entry for FED-S and you will see the full range of serial numbers (although some of the earliest, before 1938, are probably not correct, maybe renumbered or with non-original rangefinder housings, and have a "?" in the list to denote that).

Regards, Bill

And... as Jacques was mentioning, it seems that their may be some relationship between KMZ and FED just after the war since the FED-Zorki of 1948 & 1949 (and maybe some very early Zorki) often has a 1/1000th speed, even though the later Zorki did not have it. So, maybe it is a question to ask ... Did FED and KMZ interact just after the war when there were so many shortages and new production lines, tooling, etc. needed to be accomplished by both factories ?
As we were discussing in a different post, the early KMZ production of KMZ-FED, FED-Zorki, and Zorki cameras were all thought of as "a FED". So maybe in the beginning of KMZ there was some official idea that it was really a continuation and and enlargement of FED production, which shortly changed into two separate "Leica copies"!

Regards, Bill

So Bill, are you now saying JLP is not correct in his statement that Berdsk cameras are "serial #173600/174000 - c. 183000 and up". So if mine is 1e with #177xxx with Berdsk type engraving it's not made in Berdsk based on the camera passport that DVD has? Wouldn't that make all Berdsks before 180,000 not be Berdsks then? That they were actually still made in Kharkov before the move?

Vlad,

The thing is, that it is unknown where all of the cameras with this engraving were made. The fact that they are called "Berdsk" is really a misnomer and confusing. They should be called "FED-1E" based on the engraving on the top.

So because the cameras with this engraving style are called "Berdsk" does not mean they were actually made or assembled in Berdsk.

I am not saying JLP is wrong in his serial numbers range (although they may not be exactly accurate). Your camera, if it has the engraving style and serial number is a "Berdsk", but that does not mean it is made in Berdsk.

It is most likely that the serial numbers above 180xxx (or even higher now that we have seen DVDs passport) were assembled in Berdsk, but that earlier ones (173600 - 180000) were made in Kharkov.

Regards, Bill