Fed-Arsenal

Hello,

I have just got a Fed-Arsenal, very bad condition but very cheap. So, I won't be deceived!
This camera is certainly a fantasy camera. But it seems that a small series could have been made at Arsenal's before Fed begin again their work. With Fed spare parts, of course.

I don't know more than that was said here on the subject five years ago: http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1549
And I don't forget that Bill's one was made of Zorki 1b parts: http://ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=76&ParentID=1&ContentID=21&Item=FED%2DArsenal

That said, I wonder (just a little!)... On my s/n 00067, some parts don't come from Fed's: the view counter (pins between 10/15 and 30/35) and the speed dial, with a different engraving. And the 00004 (on Abramov's and Luiz's sites) has exactly the same replacing parts, as if they had missed when mounting the camera and the factory (or the forger?) had to re-make them...

Here is a photo of the seller (The camera is not yet here)


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3062015_Fed Arsenal 1.jpg

Any ideas? Do we know other Fed Arsenal cameras now?

Thanks. Jacques.

Hi Jacques,

here's what I know about it:

Georgiy Abramov writes the following: "Based on some unsubstantiated claims, right after the war a small batch of the FED-1's was made on Arsenal and had a KMZ optics". See link below and there's a picture of another one there:
http://www.photohistory.ru/1211830320838208.html

The image is this one:

Thanks a lot, Vlad.
By what I can see, this s/n 00067 should have been made from 1d or 1e parts.
Probably, I can be more precise when I have it.

Jacques.

Hi Jacques,
Do you want to sell it?

Hi Ilya!

I don't even know if the camera is genuine. For the moment, I always think it is not.
Anyway, my first passion as a collector was for the Feds. And it is always the case.

So, thanks, Ilya, but no...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

Or we can exchange if you interesting.

I send you a pm.

Hello,

I have just received the camera. I can confirm it was originally a 1940/41 Fed:
- there is no hole in the press film (after c. s/n 150000)
- the release button is of the 1d/1e type,
- the two plates are made of iron. It was not the case before the s/n # 150000, it will not be the case for the postwar Fed, including my Red Flag (checked with a magnet).

So, I think this camera could be a genuine Fed-Arsenal, if these cameras ever existed...

There are some details which are original:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/472015_DSCF2165.JPG

The speed dial has engravings never seen on Feds.

The winding button has an unusual arrow and the frame counter has original engravings and a special position of the pins: between 10/15 and 30/35 rather 15/20 and 0/35:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/472015_DSCF2168.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/472015_DSCF2167.JPG

So, the engravings are much deeper than on ordinary Feds. It is lighteron the cover:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/472015_DSCF2163.JPG

This camera was in bad condition when I received it. I cleaned it a bit, but it seems that it had very bad conditions of storage during its life. I had never seen rust on the upper plate. Unless the chrome was of very bad quality?

Thanks for your comments!

Jacques.

Two more photos.
An inscription under the pressure plate:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/572015_DSCF2178.JPG

And rust on the upper plate:


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/572015_DSCF2170.JPG

A former owner tried to hide rust with metallic paint...

Jacques.

Two last photos: the camera is re-mounted.
I have put an early Industar Moscow "tomb" which is not in the good position. After checking, the lens plate is not of Fed origin: it does not have the marking at 9 o'clock. I don't know for which lens this lens plate was made.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/572015_DSCF2187.JPG


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/572015_DSCF2190.JPG

Amitiйs. Jacques.

In fact, it's a Fed 2/50mm lens which fits.
It will stay with that lens: it looks well.


http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/572015_DSCF2191.JPG

Now I remain silent... unless you have something to say (I hope).

Jacques.

It is a most fascinating find, Jacques! I guess this question is to you since you have the camera plus the most experience in taking these around-war-time period cameras apart: do you see any elements in this camera that is similarly used in the early Kievs? Can you see anything at all that can be a clue relating to Arsenal factory? A font, an internal marking, etc?

Cheers,
Vlad.

Thanks, Vlad.
In fact no. There is nothing common with the (future) Kievs, I think. It's normal: the two ranges, Fed and Kiev, are completely different. And the first Kievs were in fact Contaxes made in Ukraine with Zeiss machine tools...

But I think more and more that a small series of these Fed-Arsenal can have been made at Arsenal's in 1946 or 1947. Of course, with parts coming mainly from wartime Feds. And when parts are missing, Arsenal could have made them in small quantities, but only for the simple ones: the speed dial, the winding button and the frame counter, the lens plate... Not a very difficult work for them.

Contrarily to what we thought some years ago, these cameras are always very rare. They were not massively made by the usual forgers! So, the only way to be sure of their genuineness would be to compare all of them, and specially the parts not originally made by Fed.

But Bill's camera is for me an enigma. A Fed-Arsenal with a Zorki 1b mechanism, it's a non sense...

Amitiйs. Jacques.

That's very interesting, in fact the engraving on the speed dial does look very odd, very unrefined. Maybe you're right in that it was done on pre-Zeiss machinery.. Thank you for your analysis! Bill's camera is in fact enigma as it seems to be made way later than the period we're talking about..

Hi Jacques and Vlad,

Although I no longer own my FED-Arsenal, I can say that the engraving, poor chrome quality, and very flat top plate (looks to have been ground and re-engraved) looks to be the same as the other known examples. It is only an enigma if you assume that the cameras are authentic and not made by an early (1970's - 1980's) forger. Of course if the cameras are fake than the forger could have easily used many different parts from whatever he had or could buy.

I have always doubted if a camera made or assembled by Arsenal would have used a "FED" logo engraving as well as an Arsenal logo. Also I have doubted that Arsenal would make such a large version of their logo since all of their pices use a small logo. I have also doubted that Arsenal, known for their fine quality even before the war, would allow such a bad chrome plating job to leave the factory. And last, I have wondered why a camera like this would be made for the military just after the War since there were many regular FEDs and Leicas around for military use. The TSVVS was made at this time, but had special features that were different from FED and Kiev, and was a very high quality camera, which the military always demanded. The military logo of the hammer and sickle looks a bit 'off' as well.

All of these doubts and the poor quality of the cameras lead me to believe that the FED-Arsenals were not made at Arsenal, who after all was the factory chosen to receive the commission of building the Kiev cameras because they were so technically advanced. So given these qualities and my doubts and unless there was some documentary evidence to the contrary, I would not believe they were made there and are the work of a forger.

But I love the camera and have always considered it an important part of Soviet - Russian camera history because even the forgeries tell something important about Soviet Era cameras.

Regards, Bill

Bill, thank you very much for your opinion, what really troubles me are the parts used of "unknown" origin which is very uncharacteristically of a forgery, thus the continued discussion about this piece.

Cheers,
Vlad

You are right Vlad. The engraving on the counter and speed dials looks amateur. Probably not factory engraved and made just to make up parts that the person who assembled and made the camera did not have available. It is hard for us collectors to understand today how a camera forger may have so little money and so little parts to make a camera to sell to pay the rent. But it was the case and may still be for some.

Regards, Bill

This is a highly interesting topic, and I have to say, that in my eyes Bill's comments are also very logical!

Best regards,
Juhani

Also, if the KMZ 'tomb' Mockba lens was made in 1948 for FED-Zorki, and it seems that the known examples of FED-Arsenal come with that lens, it does not seem probable that these cameras can have been made in 1946 or right after the war, as the story goes. And even if the FED-Arsenal was made as late as 1948 ,would KMZ actually make this Mockba lens for FED-Zorki and then send some to Arsenal? I would think that would probably make the statement on Abramov's site, "Based on some unsubstantiated claims, right after the war a small batch of the FED-1's was made on Arsenal and had a KMZ optics" somewhat suspect. Maybe they were fitted with the Mockba lenses to make them look to be from that time period?

Regards, Bill