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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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 Posted - Sep 13 2007 : 09:26:21 AM
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Oh my god, Bill! You either have very small hands or this thing is humonngous! :)
Do you know what the 7-0-7 scale is for on rotating cylinder?
Vlad. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2007 : 11:31:59 AM
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Hi Vlad,
The camera is very large and heavy. I am 6' tall and have hands that are not small (just normal). It is really meant for use on a tripod and hand-holding it would be hard. It weighs about 6.3 lbs and when you hand-hold it has the feel of the size of a Speed Graphic. That being said, it is very comfortable to hold and the design is good.
I don't know what the 7-0-7 scale is, but I can tell you that because the lens rotates and the exposure is being made through a thin slit on the "shutter drum" near the film plane, the exposures take much longer than normal. For example, when you set the shutter to a 1 sec. exposure, it takes the rotating lens and shutter 19 sec. to complete the exposure. So hand-holding the camera would probably give a wavy image due to camera movement over the time. Maybe at 1/60 sec. it can be hand-held. Soon I will put a few rolls through it and see, and will post the results.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2007 : 11:40:24 AM
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I was just kidding about your hands  . That is a huge camera! It's probably not meant to be shot hand-held... especially being this heavy... let me know once you read the manual at some point, I'm just curious about the scale by the lens..
Thanks,
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2007 : 1:11:02 PM
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Vlad,
I didn't realize what you were referring to by the 7-0-7 scale .. now I see. That scale tells you the amount of adjustment that the lens is set at, vertically (up or down). The big inset knob below the lens can be turned either way to make this adjustment. So this means that the lens will be angled either up or down at exposure.
The lens adjusts up or down 8mm either way. The manual just says that this feature "expands the technical possibilities of photographing". Different literatures on the camera say two reasons: (1) For more accurate (less distortion) architectural photographs. (2)The brochure of the Horizon 205 PC pictured on my website says, "one can scan an additional area of the future picture without changing the camera position", which I believe is probably the case. This would allow three photos to be taken and the resulting prints spliced together to form a large panoramic mural.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2007 : 1:31:18 PM
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I see, that makes sense, this way you have more vertical coverage if you're doing panoramic virtual tours. Thanks for checking on that!
Vlad. |
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Luiz Paracampo
Luiz Paracampo
Brazil
2006 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2007 : 6:22:11 PM
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Bill
That is a great goal! Your acquisition is really unvaluable. Congratulations. These cameras as say the Italians - "Mi toglie il fiato!"
Your camera belongs to the second series. The first one had no PC control and had diferent lateral holders.
LP |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2007 : 6:38:01 PM
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Luiz,
Thank you. It is a beautiful camera and I am very happy to add it to my collection. The mechanism works very smoothly and you can see that it is a high-quality camera when you hold it. I have been looking for this camera for some time.
Luiz, do you know if any of these cameras are still being made by KMZ or did they stop production in 2005, or before?
Regards, Bill
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 20 2008 : 10:21:50 AM
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which former model had no shift. there are only two versions horizon 205 pc and pan 120(export model-identical inside).
shift is plus minus 7mm.
we would like to finally see a perfect test-report since kmz-zenit was unwilling to give the camera to real panorama experts. from all the 5x12-rotapan-cameras this one seems most clever.
1. it is mechanical- no problems with electronics
2. no problem with wind stopping rotating of the drum
3. large shift plus minus 7mm(not 8mm)
4. removed since 55mm is wrong 50,5mm is right.
5. large exposuretimes with no gap like widelux 1500/widepan
1/60 -1 sec.
yes you can shift up-shoot and shift down and shoot, then stitch the parts.
can someone having this camera do an extensive test? on tripod with exaxt distance measurings. depth of field is limited. thats why precise settings is important. i cold provide depth-of-field table of my widelux 1500. i tested it against noblex 150.
we want to know if ho 205 pc/pan 120 is a relieable tool. not like s3-pro where lens had been changed despite the fact that 202-lens was already perfect. see here:
http://www.pbase.com/europanorama/panoramic_camera&gcmd=add_comment
meanwhile newer s3-pro-production has the lens-position been changed to get better fepth-of field. but this has nothing to do with lacking lens-sharpness at fstop 16. best way is exchanging s3-pro lens by old 202-lens.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
Edited by - europanorama on Feb 05 2009 07:39:16 AM |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2008 : 12:32:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
Do you know what the 7-0-7 scale is for on rotating cylinder?
Lens shift. |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 20 2008 : 12:43:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
Luiz, do you know if any of these cameras are still being made by KMZ or did they stop production in 2005, or before?
Still in production, as I know... But very few people buys Horizon-205. Demand is insignificant.
Horizon-kompakt* and Horizon-perfekt are in production too, but under the orders of "Lomography Society".
See http://shop.lomography.com/horizon/kompakt/
and http://shop.lomography.com/horizon/perfekt/
*) -- Amendment: Horizon-kompakt was made two years ago in 2005--2006 years (~4000 cameras), but production will be continued. |
Edited by - Zoom on Mar 21 2008 09:32:56 AM |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 21 2008 : 3:29:28 PM
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how about precision? if you even cannot write the model name properly, how can you really be interested in horizon 205 pc? i was told 3 pcs are being produced per months. if they could give out a good working model for a test then they could sell much more. or show a precise test. why is this so difficult? kmz-zenit. if nothing is done nothing will come back.
precision-which is also an issue in kmz-zenit-production.
if we do not pressure them we will never see perfectly working cameras!
just a little bit of precision is not enough for rotating lens pancams. i can tell you stories beginning in 1979 with horizont, then horizon 202 and finally s3-pro. and badly produced widelux 1500- thats why noblex started camera-production. we have been waiting for ho 205 pc since 1988....even in march 1981 when in accidentally was in moskov i was told that 3 pan-cameras were in production. but they didnt tell me which neighter they helped me solve the light-fall-in-problem in horizont. it is faith of this camera said foto-tass. technointorg even did not meet me. i had phone-contact from nearby hotel(beograd).
when s3-pro was in repair for the lens-problem i asked what they changed-if the lens has the same good quality like in 202 i was told it is looking similar. similar? we want perfect lenses in horizon-pancams. for horizon kompakt we can only ask which market has asked for a crippled camera? the kompakt is a joke not for serious panoramic photographers. widelux 1500 already has only 3 exposure times but fstops from 2.8 upwards. those limited 3 exposures is already a mess. how much a mess is a kompakt with so little possibilities. ii see at the end we will have to produce our own perfect lens for horizon s3-pro having the same quality like noblex over widelux. similar like the luxury model technopan with all exposure times.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 21 2008 : 4:36:58 PM
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Zoom, what is a factory price of such camera? I'm just curious...
Thank you!
Vlad. |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2008 : 4:50:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
how about precision? if you even cannot write the model name properly, how can you really be interested in horizon 205 pc? ...
To whom have you been talking? ;)
About name: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-names.html#horizon
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Mar 21 2008 : 6:55:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
what is a factory price of such camera?
You are interesting in the Horizon-205 price?
Approx. 40000 Rubles.
But better to ask kmz207@zenit.istra.ru
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1033 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 22 2008 : 03:34:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
what is a factory price of such camera?
You are interesting in the Horizon-205 price?
Approx. 40000 Rubles.
But better to ask kmz207@zenit.istra.ru
1 163,80 EUR says my currency converter 
Smena rules |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 22 2008 : 09:49:05 AM
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Not too shabby! Thanks Zoom! Good to have this information.
Vlad |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 09:56:20 AM
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Happy to say, that Pan-120 (export version of Horizon-205 PC) today arrived safely to me from Sweden! While beeing a big man, this camera doesn't seems as matchboxes when hanging on my neck ...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/pan-120.jpg
Regards,
Aidas
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 10:26:57 AM
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compliments Aidas ...lucky man !
alain
(psssttt ...how much ?  ) |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 10:30:42 AM
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Aidas - bravo! I see you are getting into more and more serious pieces lately! Reporter, Pan-120, Siluet... 
Vlad |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 11:24:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37
compliments Aidas ...lucky man !
alain
(psssttt ...how much ? )
Alain,
Thanks! I have nothing to hide ... I have paid half a price of the new Horizon-205 PC ... |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 11:28:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
Aidas - bravo! I see you are getting into more and more serious pieces lately! Reporter, Pan-120, Siluet...
Vlad
Vlad,
Thanks for your assistance in aquiring this ... ! Unfortunately I already possess a lot of common FSU cameras, so only rarer ones on my target now ... Only please - say nothing to her ...
Best Regards,
Aidas |
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BERRY alain
mermoz37
France
814 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 12:14:01 PM
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aidas ,
if you will see another for such a price ...please tell me ! |
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Jacques M.
France
2653 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 5:20:40 PM
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Congratulations, Aidas!
Happy for you
By the way, what is the weight of such a camera?
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 10:34:57 PM
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how much did you pay?
could you shoot a test by using shift up and shift down. i would like to stitch both images.
be careful when setting distances. there is not much depth-of-field. e.g. with widelux 1500 i added additional focus-points(inbetween the meters. e.g. two more between 5 and 10m etc.
be aware that below 5m resolution is lower. that is a commun problem with widelux 1500(which i have) and pan 120/horizon 205 pc-cameras. i was told that this lens-problem da ben solved in widepan. in noblex sharpness is perfect for any distance. i tested it.
50mm lens with so much shift(+-7mm). 55m was wrong 50.5mm is true.
use a tripod when testing the camera. and make a shooting-checklist otherwise you will have double-exposures.
i have a depth-of-field-table for widelux 1500. i could provide it if you wish. since it has the same 50mm-lens and possibly the same coc(circle of confusion) it can be used for eigher camera.
i have only seen a nightshot-poster at photokina and an earlier daylight-shot-under not perfect light-conditions.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
Edited by - europanorama on Feb 05 2009 07:48:14 AM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 28 2008 : 10:47:43 PM
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Congratulations Aidas, It is a beauty! Can you tell what year it was made by the serial number on the lens? Mine was made in 2001. I will look forward to see more photos of the camera when you put them on your website. Also thanks for the tip about the photograph of the Bolshoi Ballet members in NYC with all of their various Soviet cameras. I will be getting it soon and will show it to everyone on a post on this forum. Thanks Aidas!
Regards, Bill
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 29 2008 : 01:22:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mermoz37
aidas ,
if you will see another for such a price ...please tell me !
Alain,
I will tell you obviously ...  |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 29 2008 : 01:24:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Congratulations, Aidas!
Happy for you
By the way, what is the weight of such a camera?
Amitiés. Jacques.
Jacques,
Thanks! The weight of particular camera is 3.7 kg ... |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 29 2008 : 01:28:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
how much did you pay?
could you shoot a test by using shift up and shift down. i would like to stitch both images.
be careful when setting distances. there is not much depth-of-field. e.g. with widelux 1500 i added additional focus-points(inbetween the meters. e.g. two more between 5 and 10m etc.
be aware that below 5m resolution is lower. that is a commun problem with widelux 1500(which i have) and pan 120/horizon 205 pc-cameras. i was told that this lens-problem da ben solved in widepan. in noblex sharpness is perfect for any distance. i tested it.
50mm lens with so much shift(+-7mm) and images-height of 55mm is much impressive, which makes pan 120/horizon 205 pc unique.
50mm with 55mm image-height equals 45.45mm on a 50mm image-camera like noblex/widelux/widepan with their 50mm/50mm combination.
use a tripod when testing the camera. and make a shooting-checklist otherwise you will have double-exposures.
i have a depth-of-field-table for widelux 1500. i could provide it if you wish. since it has the same 50mm-lens and possibly the same coc(circle of confusion) it can be used for eigher camera.
i have only seen a nightshot-poster at photokina and an earlier daylight-shot-under not perfect light-conditions.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo
Michael,
thanks for your advises indeed! Unfortunately I'm collector, not active camera user, so don't expect camera test results from me ...
About camera price ... I have already answered your question in previous records of particular topics ...
Best Regards,
Aidas |
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Aidas Pikiotas
AidasCams
Lithuania
973 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 29 2008 : 01:34:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
Congratulations Aidas, It is a beauty! Can you tell what year it was made by the serial number on the lens? Mine was made in 2001. I will look forward to see more photos of the camera when you put them on your website. Also thanks for the tip about the photograph of the Bolshoi Ballet members in NYC with all of their various Soviet cameras. I will be getting it soon and will show it to everyone on a post on this forum. Thanks Aidas!
Regards, Bill
Bill,
I'm really happy to have this beautiful camera and the serials of my Pan-120 is extremely close to yours ... #010037! Your images of Horizon-205PC camera are great, so I don't think I have to place some additional ones ...
I'm happy you have obtained this fantastic photograph with Bolshoj Teatr artists! I'm looking forward to see it in our catalogue as soon ...
Best Regards,
Aidas |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 29 2008 : 8:21:48 PM
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wrong filmsize for horizon 205 pc/pan 120 here:
http://www.sovietcams.com/index.php?426797343
its 50.5 x110 mm not 50 x 110 mm thats the main advantage against the others.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
Edited by - europanorama on Feb 05 2009 07:50:03 AM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 29 2008 : 10:40:25 PM
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Michael,
I just measured the height and width of my Horizon 205-PC and the size of the image it will make
on the film is exactly 50.5 mm x 110 mm. This is an exact measurement of my camera serial No. 010033,
taken at the film plane.
Regards, Bill
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Zoom
602 Posts |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Mar 31 2008 : 5:22:10 PM
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former data-sheet told 55 x 110mm. i received a mail telling me that its indeed 50.5mm. i once tested 205 pc at photokina. i must dig out the negatives the check. one friend told me that the camera fell apart..
but the same also took place with zeiss-ikon...
silvestricamera can tell more about the size-changes. it must have to do with shift-quality-decreasing when 55mm-image would be shown. the changed from +-8 to 7mm.
why it has no 1/250 can also be explained. widepan and widelux 1500(similar design) have the 1/250 as shortest exp. time. at start there is a 3mm overexposure in widepan. the same is in widelux 1500. we tried to improve by setting the start point earlier. it is improved but not yet perfect. maybe we will success. btw: we had exchanged the weights. i had 14 sec. exposure times. but it also slowed down 1/60-speed. for certain indoor-shots with people(fitness-center) it was not the right idea. the were too blurry. maybe having two cameras would be best.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 12 2008 : 8:12:33 PM
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moscovphoto is selling a horizon 205 pc with 55x 110mm. given me the zenit-istra-link with data. zenit! how about correcting this forever?
i asked to give me informations about new horizon s3-pro-production. i want one with same lens-quality like ho 202. sharp for all apertures from 8 to 16.
i want a special s3-pro(or two) with lens set to infinity. for 3d-stereo-work.why? i will explain elsewhere in a ho s3-pro-thread.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 14 2008 : 5:33:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
moscovphoto is selling a horizon 205 pc with 55x 110mm.
Who is this "moscovphoto"?..
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
zenit! how about correcting this forever?
What data do you like to "correct forever"?
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
i asked to give me informations about new horizon s3-pro-production.
...
i want one...
Why you don't send a request to KMZ directly?
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 14 2008 : 8:10:02 PM
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Michael,
I don't think there is anyone reading this forum that can build you a KMZ camera or correct whatever data you want corrected! This is a collectors and users forum ... not the KMZ factory.
And, in general, if you want something, it is much better to ask for it nicely! And ... nothing is "forever" ;-)
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 14 2008 : 8:51:17 PM
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Hello Michael,
First of all - welcome to USSRPhoto forums! and second, I am totally lost with your last post that you made... are you asking a question or are you making a statement? As Bill said we are in no way affiliated with any Soviet or Russian manufacturer, I am trying to understand your point but so far unsuccessfully..
Best regards,
Vlad |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 09:50:45 AM
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1. why cant someone of the russians here find out who is responsive for communication.
mr manchuk who was capable is now responsible for the personal. e.g. i had lost a lot of time finding out that panofot is only a prototype which will not be produced. btw: maybe panofot d3 is the new digital swinglens cam. i know sowjetunion and russia is not tiny switzerland and bigger is more complicated. maybe they are currently undergoing main structure-changes. but you must understand. i cannot do everything. i started my forum mainly due to the horizon-problem and to help KMZ-zenit to improve.
but i dont see any improvements yet. even not for the simplest communication one. kmz-zenit must at least come here and give minimum informations. digital pancams are important but mechanical ones too.
btw: arent they developping their own chip.
horizon 205 pc-despite the fact that this camere has been on the market since quite a long time, also pan-120, why cant we see highresolution-testfiles? is it so difficult to shoot and scan?
i have some tests made at silvestri-stand but they are not good enough. test-setup was bad. they didnt allow taking it out and interrupted testing.....
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Jun 15 2008 : 2:01:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
i had lost a lot of time finding out that panofot is only a prototype which will not be produced.
It is simple... Translate this page (you may translate only a first words): http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/panofot/index.html
quote:
Ďŕíîôîň (Panofot)
Ďđîĺęň ďŕíîđŕěíîăî ôîňîŕďďŕđŕňŕ... (The project of panoramic camera...)
;)
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
maybe panofot d3 is the new digital swinglens cam.
Not swing-lens.
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
but you must understand. i cannot do everything. i started my forum mainly due to the horizon-problem and to help KMZ-zenit to improve.
Say us what a problem Horisons has?
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
kmz-zenit must at least come here and give minimum informations.
;)
What information you needed in?
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
horizon 205 pc-despite the fact that this camere has been on the market since quite a long time, also pan-120, why cant we see highresolution-testfiles? is it so difficult to shoot and scan?
It is interesting for me: what you will do with this gigabyte file? What for it is necessary to you? |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 02 2008 : 03:10:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
It is interesting for me: what you will do with this gigabyte file? What for it is necessary to you?
to sell ultralarge, razorsharp panoramaposters without carrying heavy roundshots.
michael przewrocki
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Jul 02 2008 : 11:21:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
to sell ultralarge, razorsharp panoramaposters without carrying heavy roundshots.
Sorry, but you didn't answer my question... For what these high-resolution test files are necessary to you? |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 07:42:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
how about precision? if you even cannot write the model name properly, how can you really be interested in horizon 205 pc? ...
To whom have you been talking? ;)
About name: http://www.zenitcamera.com/qa/qa-names.html#horizon
you still are uncapable to write the true camera-name.
But very few people buys Horizon-205.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 07:45:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
to sell ultralarge, razorsharp panoramaposters without carrying heavy roundshots.
Sorry, but you didn't answer my question... For what these high-resolution test files are necessary to you?
you seem to be rather a horizon 205 pc-collector than a high-quality user.
it lasted several years until one of the horizon s3 pro-user confirmed that its new lens was bad at fstop 16. it must be replaced by 202-lens.
if you dont need quality you can use a holga. or horizon kompakt
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 07:58:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Zoom
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
i had lost a lot of time finding out that panofot is only a prototype which will not be produced.
It is simple... Translate this page (you may translate only a first words): http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/panofot/index.html
quote:
Ďŕíîôîň (Panofot)
Ďđîĺęň ďŕíîđŕěíîăî ôîňîŕďďŕđŕňŕ... (The project of panoramic camera...)
;)
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
maybe panofot d3 is the new digital swinglens cam.
Not swing-lens.
swinglens also new digital "horizont" maybe called panofot d3. not the first time kmz-zenit using existing model-names. see s3-pro(fuji).
d3 nikon, roundshot. clever but not very innovative.
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
but you must understand. i cannot do everything. i started my forum mainly due to the horizon-problem and to help KMZ-zenit to improve.
Say us what a problem Horisons has?
horizon s3-pro- lens not sharp at fstop 16.
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
kmz-zenit must at least come here and give minimum informations.
;)
What information you needed in?
informations about rotating speeds, production changes, camera improvements. not lies about lens-quality. s3-pro=sharper lens than 202
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
horizon 205 pc-despite the fact that this camere has been on the market since quite a long time, also pan-120, why cant we see highresolution-testfiles? is it so difficult to shoot and scan?
It is interesting for me: what you will do with this gigabyte file? What for it is necessary to you?
highest quality prints. miles above digital cams.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
Edited by - europanorama on Feb 05 2009 08:01:05 AM |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 10:18:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
you seem to be rather a horizon 205 pc-collector than a high-quality user.
Sorry, I'm not a photographer and not a collector... |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 10:27:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
not the first time kmz-zenit using existing model-names. see s3-pro(fuji). d3 nikon, roundshot. clever but not very innovative.
At first, an indexes are not patentable...
At second, "Fujifilm FinePix S3 Pro" was first announced on 05.02.2004, but "Horizon S3 pro" in Photokina'2002. So primary "S3 pro" name was first used by KMZ.
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 12:29:24 PM
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totally wrong. horizon s3pro was a big surprise at photokina 04, jan willem markeringk can confirm. he has the best photo-technique-site of the world. we had met at kmz-zenit-stand. i am not sure if s3-pro had not been announced at 02. i put some informations about total confusion of the shown testshots at photokina 02 or 04.
no precision is a big problem all over the world. not only in photography. precision leads to stability. thats why i am so sad that we photoraphers have to fight to get what we need. you cannot believe how much effort my american panoramic collegues put into producing eighter widepan(in china) and noblex(prototype was electropan by kornelius schorle) since widelux 1500 was bad. our effort to improve widelux 1500 here lead to a production change. until now i dont know anything about horizon 205 pc/pan 120 quality. i have seen two posters, shot under difficult light-situations. i was told that at one photokina parts fell apart.....but this happenend also with zeiss ikon....
if camera-producers would ask their potential customers beforehand and led them test a lot of pain would not happen.
horizons are unique among all rotating pancams. they are mechanical and lightweight. no electric parts to let them work. people complained about noblex(35mm versions) which led to improvements. horizon 205pc/pan 120 has/had a great potential, if only they had done some things better. e.g. lens-quality to get 55mm-image-height. 45mm equivalent compared to noblex/widepan/widelux(50mm) but larger image, smaller ratio.
limited vertical angle and lacking shift is a big problem for panorama-shooting.
thes large russian pancams have at least largest shift of all swinglens cams.
lets hope that digital horizon(panofot d3 ?) will have all we dreamed.
i would not be surprised if it will be a 360-cam rather than short-rotation/swinglens(limited angle 120/140 degr.) the same way we were surprised with the horizon-models (s3-pro etc.) at photokina 04.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 12:29:51 PM
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totally wrong. horizon s3pro was a big surprise at photokina 04, jan willem markeringk can confirm. he has the best photo-technique-site of the world. we had met at kmz-zenit-stand. i am not sure if s3-pro had not been announced at 02. i put some informations about total confusion of the shown testshots at photokina 02 or 04.
no precision is a big problem all over the world. not only in photography. precision leads to stability. thats why i am so sad that we photoraphers have to fight to get what we need. you cannot believe how much effort my american panoramic collegues put into producing eighter widepan(in china) and noblex(prototype was electropan by kornelius schorle) since widelux 1500 was bad. our effort to improve widelux 1500 here lead to a production change. until now i dont know anything about horizon 205 pc/pan 120 quality. i have seen two posters, shot under difficult light-situations. i was told that at one photokina parts fell apart.....but this happenend also with zeiss ikon....
if camera-producers would ask their potential customers beforehand and led them test a lot of pain would not happen.
horizons are unique among all rotating pancams. they are mechanical and lightweight. no electric parts to let them work. people complained about noblex(35mm versions) which led to improvements. horizon 205pc/pan 120 has/had a great potential, if only they had done some things better. e.g. lens-quality to get 55mm-image-height. 45mm equivalent compared to noblex/widepan/widelux(50mm) but larger image, smaller ratio.
limited vertical angle and lacking shift is a big problem for panorama-shooting.
thes large russian pancams have at least largest shift of all swinglens cams.
lets hope that digital horizon(panofot d3 ?) will have all we dreamed.
i would not be surprised if it will be a 360-cam rather than short-rotation/swinglens(limited angle 120/140 degr.) the same way we were surprised with the horizon-models (s3-pro etc.) at photokina 04.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 2:13:41 PM
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wikipedia-corrections- additions
i changed some incorrect "facts" in wikipedia horizon and added some true facts.
what nerves me most are incompetent editors of large photomagazines which over and over again over the years publishing incorrect/unsufficient data. but more nerves me incompetent camera-makers, unable/willing to learn. i know panoramic cameras are most complicated to build, thats why precise work is a must. we/me has suffered too much in the last 30 years. yes, 1979 started my horizont-drama. it started when the polish airline had an excuse not to transport my package in inner-polish flight from cracov to warsaw at the promises time/day. no enough space due to blood-conserve.... i must laugh, what a lie. maybe they expected to pay them. we call it: smearing(palm-oil)! i had to retravel to our airport the day after. all details about panorama-dramas(analogue pancams) can be read in my forum at:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/pancams
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Zoom
602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 4:56:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
totally wrong. horizon s3pro was a big surprise at photokina 04, jan willem markeringk can confirm. he has the best photo-technique-site of the world. we had met at kmz-zenit-stand. i am not sure if s3-pro had not been announced at 02.
See http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/horizon/index.html#horizon-s3
quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
horizon 205pc/pan 120 has/had a great potential, if only they had done some things better.
I think that a film cameras died... I don't like this, but this is the fact.
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Feb 08 2009 : 5:49:33 PM
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the inventor of the shift-mechanism left the cooperation leaving the construction to them. i can only guess why. lacking precision and ignorance to do it right. sorry kmz-zenit. i hope this has already been changed. i have just seen a long report about moscov, almost all about the riches. one has just found out that they need precision/quality. look at dubai, the super-riches. forgot to take care of human pollution(toilets). ultra-stupid.look at the bank-crisis. some swiss analysts who warned early enough were fired...
no -film-cameras will never die. look at new bessa/voigtlaender 67.
good 67 cameras will outbeat any dslr at the moment.
this crisis is a good chance for everybody to learn on all levels, right?
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3d-stereo-aeropanorama
swiss alps like never before
marspanoramas in 3d-stereo |
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Elmar Lang
Italy
33 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2016 : 09:15:08 AM
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Hello,
thanks to the help of a friend of mine from Moscow, I've just received a Horizon-205 camera (arrived on the past Saturday).
The camera, came complete with its case, filter set of 4, carrying case, instruction booklet and "Pasport". The serial no. is 0100038 and the pasport is dated 05/2011.
I hope I will have the time to test it very soon!
Best wishes,
Enzo - Italy |
Edited by - Elmar Lang on May 16 2016 09:27:38 AM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4265 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 16 2016 : 10:51:16 AM
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| Would love to see the results! |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 24 2016 : 02:49:18 AM
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Be very careful when cocking shutter. dont make a mistake.I could test it at photokina. but didnt have enough time. couldnt get a reasonable result. be aware: below 5m-like with widelux 1500-resolution will decrease. Met a friend in youth hostel who told me when he has seen it at the stand camera broke. i can understand. its slow photography. slowly cock the shutter and mount film the right way.
price still around 2300 euro.
If then i would be interested in Pan 120.
these mechanic rotapancams have ONE decisive advantage infront of NOBLEX: when its windy Noblex cannot rotate. or only with uneven rotation. Had both in helicopter.
i know why there is no 1/250. all mechanical rotapan-cams have a problem during start.even if film is shorter that 120mm. some millimeter are overexposed.
would like to know how exactly is filmsize. and we would like to se a comparision shot maybe of a house with and without shift(7mm).
use a cable-release. and tripod. and focussing must be done properly. i could provide DOF-table. if lens has same CoC(sharpness) like Widelux 1500. Z= 1/48. i added marker inbetween distance-scale.
if somone could write my handwritten data into a table.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3DStereo-Aeropanorama
Swiss Alps like never before
Marspanoramas in 3D
sorry temp.ltd. access
3DSTEREO-Media
Photos/Panoramas/Videos
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Elmar Lang
Italy
33 Posts |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 04 2020 : 10:03:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
Would love to see the results!
There is no Horizon 205 on the market
www.europanorama.tk
3DStereo-Aeropanorama
Swiss Alps like never before
Marspanoramas in 3D not visible anymore
sorry website(geocities free)closed. no stereobee java-applet working. |
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1033 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - May 04 2020 : 11:03:11 PM
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Enzo, please add your specimen to the wiki catalog
Best regards,
Juhani |
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Elmar Lang
Italy
33 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2020 : 04:07:49 AM
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quote:
There is no Horizon 205 on the market
Hello Michael,
thank you for your reply.
Actually, I have two examples of this camera, with subtle differences of manufacture.
The first, bought by a colleague from Moscow at a local camera shop.
The second, bought from an italian hobby photographer: a few pieces of the 205 have been imported some years ago by Lino Manfrotto's Company (the maker of the well-known tripods) and merchandised on the Italian market. I don't know how many pieces have been imported/sold though, but this was advertised on local photo magazines, years ago.
As kindly suggested by Juhani, I will put the data of both my 205's in the wiki catalogue. I hope I will get the authorization to drive up to my laboratory, where my photo equipment is stored (we're living complicate times, in Italy, due to the well-known epidemic…).
All the best and greetings from Northern Italy,
Enzo
Edit:
searching through my papers at home, I've found the data of my two Horizon-205 "PC":
- the first, complete with its pasport, instructions and invoice, is no. 010038, made in May 2011 and re-checked ("pereproveren") in November 2015 (both dates with "OTK-188" stamp). With invoice and guarantee from "Fotozentr", Moscow, Gogolevsky Blvd., December 19th, 2015.
- the second, a piece imported in Italy by Manfrotto Trading, pity without documents, lost by the preceding owner, an old hobby photographer, is no. 010024.
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Edited by - Elmar Lang on May 16 2020 08:00:54 AM |
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Elmar Lang
Italy
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2022 : 02:54:21 AM
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Hello,
I would like to revive this discussion on the curious Horizon-205 PC panoramic camera.
Apparently, one of such cameras will be up for sale at Leitz Photographica Auction, November 26th 2022, lot nr. 401: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/139632414_kmz-horizon-205-panoramic-camera-prototype
It has an estimate price of 12.000,-/14.000,- Euro and it will start with an opening price of 6.000,- Euro.
The piece is described as a prototype, but I don't see any detail -at least after the pictures provided- that would show any difference from the two cameras I own, both satisfactorily working for my hobby.
Perhaps, better reading the catalogue description one understands that the whole production of the russian 120-film panoramic camera, should be considered as made of prototypes, due to the few pieces assembled/sold.
So, also this post-USSR camera is entering in the dreams of collectors, not only of photographers...
All the best,
Enzo (E.L.) |
Edited by - Elmar Lang on Nov 08 2022 03:27:23 AM |
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SteveA
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2022 : 06:00:53 AM
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Hi Enzo, according to Princelle this is a prototype 6x12cm on 120 rollfilm camera. In his book he shows the one with lever film wind, this one appears to have a knob wind. I think this may be his reference K2802/ the Photokina prototype as he mentions the 'upper hood' is reduced in size with shutter release by button instead of lever. Comparing the picture in Princelles book, I can see that the Leitz one has a thinner top cover and the shutter release button appears to be on the back of the camera rather than the front. It also has handles on the sides of the camera, not present on the Princelle example.
The world is going mad - quite who in their right mind would spend over 6,000 Euros on this escapes me...
Cheers,
Steve |
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Elmar Lang
Italy
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2022 : 09:54:21 AM
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Hi Steve,
thank you for your kind, interesting reply.
I will take home from my lab, my two 205 cameras that, besides minor (more aesthetic than functional) differences between them, are almost identical to Leitz Auction's piece: both with side handles, both with rear-located shutter release, both with film advance knob etc. and identical "Zenit", padded nylon carrying case with adjustable shoulder strap.
I don't have my Princelle at hand so, I cannot compare the hereby discussed camera, with the piece illustrated in that invaluable book...
Re. the estimate and start price given by Leitz Auction's experts, that's upon them and their knowledge of the market and of the collecting community: the 205 is rare, it was never put in series production like the 202 and the S3Pro (not to mention those made on behalf of the Lomographic Society). This explains why they decided to give such a high valuation.
In the catalogue's description it is reported of a limited run of 20-or-so cameras ever produced.
Here: http://ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=5&ParentID=1&ContentID=307&Item=Horizon+205+PC+%28Panoramic+Camera%29 the colleague Nightphoto created the Wiki-Catalog page on the 205 (updated with the data of my two pieces); there, he reports as follow:
"(...)The prototype of this medium format model was made circa 1992 and a pre-production model shown at Photokina in 1994. Very few of these cameras have been produced, possibly as few as 24 (as stated on the KMZ website production page), or maybe a few more than that.(...).
Does anyone know the link to where KMZ declares the number of cameras they made?
In my opinion, the story (and the yet untold story) about this heavy, beautiful camera, still waits to be written!...
All the best,
Enzo |
Edited by - Elmar Lang on Nov 08 2022 10:03:37 AM |
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Alex_Rus
Russia
35 Posts |
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Elmar Lang
Italy
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 15 2022 : 10:12:13 AM
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Thank you, Alex, for the provided info!
Enzo |
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Elmar Lang
Italy
33 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2022 : 1:09:59 PM
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| I see that the Horizon-205PC that was offered in auction on the past Saturday, remained unsold... |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Nov 30 2022 : 6:22:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by europanorama
Be very careful when cocking shutter. dont make a mistake.I could test it at photokina. but didnt have enough time. couldnt get a reasonable result. be aware: below 5m-like with widelux 1500-resolution will decrease. Met a friend in youth hostel who told me when he has seen it at the stand camera broke. i can understand. its slow photography. slowly cock the shutter and mount film the right way.
price still around 2300 euro.
If then i would be interested in Pan 120.
these mechanic rotapancams have ONE decisive advantage infront of NOBLEX: when its windy Noblex cannot rotate. or only with uneven rotation. Had both in helicopter.
i know why there is no 1/250. all mechanical rotapan-cams have a problem during start.even if film is shorter that 120mm. some millimeter are overexposed.
would like to know how exactly is filmsize. and we would like to se a comparision shot maybe of a house with and without shift(7mm).
use a cable-release. and tripod. and focussing must be done properly. i could provide DOF-table. if lens has same CoC(sharpness) like Widelux 1500. Z= 1/48. i added marker inbetween distance-scale.
if somone could write my handwritten data into a table.
www.europanorama.ch.vu
3DStereo-Aeropanorama
Swiss Alps like never before
Marspanoramas in 3D
sorry temp.ltd. access
3DSTEREO-Media
Photos/Panoramas/Videos
1. there has never been a horizon 205, fact.
2. size of film is not 6 x12
3. reason why not quicker than 1/60 is the old widelux/widepanproblem with overexposure at start. we tried to improve on my w1500 but overexposure only moved a bit to the left, start of 50 x 122mm. all details in my forum: new domain rotapancams.net
NEVER EVER THINK ABOUT BUYING widelux 1500. bad surprises are waiting. wrong design and production from 3rd parties. also second one -replacemtn by panon: crap. spend 5800 usd for crapcam. spent another 2000 chf for overhaul. it was my repairman who found out what was wrong.i made DOF-table.found a similar one discussing COC. its really 1/48, i compared universal DOF table with mine. COC if not defined by producer is individual, depending what is critical sharpness from A to B.
4. dont expect sharp images below 5m.also not on 205 PC and PAN 120(Manfrottos Export Model looking totally different).
for W1500 closeup lens was made, never saw results. for widepan 140(2 different models) closeup lenses were made seen on ebay.!Noblex seem to have solved that problem maybe due to smaller slit or different optic. who knows? i used first model nr, 19 with closeup lens resulting in very sharp images. noblex has better coating. better in difficult light. lens needs slit-sunshade. made for both. same on Roundshot 65/70/220.on noblex uv-filter with slit-tape. on other slitted cap on roundshot covered with velvet.
maybe i will replace that with musou velvet= darket black see also its paint.
due to long FL of 50mm these cam are not easy to focus or taking decision what distance to set. true for nearer distances. i added inbetween markers e.g. in DOF table named. 3.1- 3.2. so we had 3 ' ' 5 etc.
thats why i had troubles getting sharp images in narrow photokina space aroun KMZ-stand. at least i got berlebach tripod.
mechanical rotapancams have big advantage over noblex. under windy conditions better for gettin electronic noblex altogether.
only 3 exposure times is a bit mess on these. doublexposures impossible camera will shake/move when cocking. one must attach/change ND-filters. someone made magnetic filter sistem for widelux 1500. Dont buy for shooting. lens is misaligned.one side unsharp!!!!!!and terrible banding nit light leaks.
read elsewhere maybe photrio about details or in rotapancams.net if you register.also noblex prototypes offered for high prices.
www.stereopan.org
3DStereo-Aeropanorama
Swiss Alps like never before
Marspanoramas in 3D not visible anymore
sorry website(geocities free)closed. no stereobee java-applet working. |
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Michael Przewrocki
europanorama
Switzerland
65 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Nov 30 2022 : 6:34:41 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by AidasCams
Happy to say, that Pan-120 (export version of Horizon-205 PC) today arrived safely to me from Sweden! While beeing a big man, this camera doesn't seems as matchboxes when hanging on my neck ...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/pan-120.jpg
Regards,
Aidas
Rainer K. Lampinen Tampere created the shiftlens-design and let it to KMZ-Zenith. he also created Technopan. identical to S3Pro but with 202-lens so most perfext. see diffraction at 11/16 for S3Pro and other models of the newest series.
NB: How to edit messages?
www.stereopan.org
3DStereo-Aeropanorama
Swiss Alps like never before
Marspanoramas in 3D not visible anymore
sorry website(geocities free)closed. no stereobee java-applet working. |
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1033 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Dec 01 2022 : 11:26:56 AM
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"Rainer K. Lampinen Tampere"
Tampere is city where he lives here in Finland, Rainer K. Lampinen is the persons name.
Best regards,
Juhani |
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Elmar Lang
Italy
33 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2022 : 06:34:57 AM
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Hello,
I am a hobby photographer where only sometimes photography enters in my profession.
In the late 80s until the mid 90s I've been a passionate collector of USSR-made cameras and lenses; a collection that between 2000 and 2007 I've sold with no regret, happy for how amusing and instructive it was (ok, I kept for me, not selling the Kiev-1947...). Now, I am buying some again, remaining in the Kiev rangefinder area. I like panoramic cameras too, and that explains why with some luck I've found two Horizon-205 PC cameras...
I wouldn't say that the Horizon 205 PC doesn't exist: I have two of them (one purchased in Moscow at a photo dealer, "Fotozentr" ul. Gogolevskij, December 2015. The camera, after its "Pasport" was made in 2011 and "revised/improved" in 2015, all added with the "OTK" stamps.
My second 205-PC was property of an Italian photographer, who purchased it at a photo dealer in Milan (he lost the papers), but remembering that it was imported by Manfrotto.
The "Pasport" of my first 205-PC indicates the format as 50x110, as also stated in its original instruction booklet (Russian language).
So, it's a fact too, that 2 Horizon-205 PC are property of someone (me), one more, was in auction, and further pieces do exist and are reported here and elsewhere through photos of actual cameras.
Said that, and writing as a hobbyist only, I can say that the Horizon-205 satisfied me either in its functionality or in results. The scans I've posted above, are just low-res ones from bright, detailed negatives.
Wishing a nice weekend,
Enzo (E.L.) |
Edited by - Elmar Lang on Dec 03 2022 10:40:35 AM |
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Topic |
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Horizon 205 PC (Panoramic Camera)
