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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 10:46:01 AM
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Hello,
I have just got a Fed-Arsenal, very bad condition but very cheap. So, I won't be deceived!
This camera is certainly a fantasy camera. But it seems that a small series could have been made at Arsenal's before Fed begin again their work. With Fed spare parts, of course.
I don't know more than that was said here on the subject five years ago: http://ussrphoto.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1549
And I don't forget that Bill's one was made of Zorki 1b parts: http://ussrphoto.com/Wiki/default.asp?WikiCatID=76&ParentID=1&ContentID=21&Item=FED%2DArsenal
That said, I wonder (just a little!)... On my s/n 00067, some parts don't come from Fed's: the view counter (pins between 10/15 and 30/35) and the speed dial, with a different engraving. And the 00004 (on Abramov's and Luiz's sites) has exactly the same replacing parts, as if they had missed when mounting the camera and the factory (or the forger?) had to re-make them...
Here is a photo of the seller (The camera is not yet here)
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/3062015_Fed Arsenal 1.jpg
Any ideas? Do we know other Fed Arsenal cameras now?
Thanks. Jacques.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jun 30 2015 : 2:34:20 PM
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Hi Jacques,
here's what I know about it:
Georgiy Abramov writes the following: "Based on some unsubstantiated claims, right after the war a small batch of the FED-1's was made on Arsenal and had a KMZ optics". See link below and there's a picture of another one there:
http://www.photohistory.ru/1211830320838208.html
The image is this one:
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 10:13:48 AM
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Thanks a lot, Vlad.
By what I can see, this s/n 00067 should have been made from 1d or 1e parts.
Probably, I can be more precise when I have it.
Jacques. |
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Ilya Stolyar
ilyast
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 11:24:46 AM
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Hi Jacques,
Do you want to sell it? |
Edited by - ilyast on Jul 03 2015 11:55:55 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 4:20:12 PM
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Hi Ilya!
I don't even know if the camera is genuine. For the moment, I always think it is not.
Anyway, my first passion as a collector was for the Feds. And it is always the case.
So, thanks, Ilya, but no...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Ilya Stolyar
ilyast
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2015 : 5:03:17 PM
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Or we can exchange if you interesting.
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 07:08:53 AM
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I send you a pm. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 3:52:43 PM
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Hello,
I have just received the camera. I can confirm it was originally a 1940/41 Fed:
- there is no hole in the press film (after c. s/n 150000)
- the release button is of the 1d/1e type,
- the two plates are made of iron. It was not the case before the s/n # 150000, it will not be the case for the postwar Fed, including my Red Flag (checked with a magnet).
So, I think this camera could be a genuine Fed-Arsenal, if these cameras ever existed...
There are some details which are original:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/472015_DSCF2165.JPG
The speed dial has engravings never seen on Feds.
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2015 : 4:06:14 PM
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So, the engravings are much deeper than on ordinary Feds. It is lighteron the cover:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/472015_DSCF2163.JPG
This camera was in bad condition when I received it. I cleaned it a bit, but it seems that it had very bad conditions of storage during its life. I had never seen rust on the upper plate. Unless the chrome was of very bad quality?
Thanks for your comments!
Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 05 2015 03:24:51 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 05 2015 : 12:33:25 PM
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It is a most fascinating find, Jacques! I guess this question is to you since you have the camera plus the most experience in taking these around-war-time period cameras apart: do you see any elements in this camera that is similarly used in the early Kievs? Can you see anything at all that can be a clue relating to Arsenal factory? A font, an internal marking, etc?
Cheers,
Vlad. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2015 : 4:04:21 PM
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Thanks, Vlad.
In fact no. There is nothing common with the (future) Kievs, I think. It's normal: the two ranges, Fed and Kiev, are completely different. And the first Kievs were in fact Contaxes made in Ukraine with Zeiss machine tools...
But I think more and more that a small series of these Fed-Arsenal can have been made at Arsenal's in 1946 or 1947. Of course, with parts coming mainly from wartime Feds. And when parts are missing, Arsenal could have made them in small quantities, but only for the simple ones: the speed dial, the winding button and the frame counter, the lens plate... Not a very difficult work for them.
Contrarily to what we thought some years ago, these cameras are always very rare. They were not massively made by the usual forgers! So, the only way to be sure of their genuineness would be to compare all of them, and specially the parts not originally made by Fed.
But Bill's camera is for me an enigma. A Fed-Arsenal with a Zorki 1b mechanism, it's a non sense...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 07 2015 : 2:51:59 PM
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| That's very interesting, in fact the engraving on the speed dial does look very odd, very unrefined. Maybe you're right in that it was done on pre-Zeiss machinery.. Thank you for your analysis! Bill's camera is in fact enigma as it seems to be made way later than the period we're talking about.. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 07 2015 : 4:23:44 PM
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Hi Jacques and Vlad,
Although I no longer own my FED-Arsenal, I can say that the engraving, poor chrome quality, and very flat top plate (looks to have been ground and re-engraved) looks to be the same as the other known examples. It is only an enigma if you assume that the cameras are authentic and not made by an early (1970's - 1980's) forger. Of course if the cameras are fake than the forger could have easily used many different parts from whatever he had or could buy.
I have always doubted if a camera made or assembled by Arsenal would have used a "FED" logo engraving as well as an Arsenal logo. Also I have doubted that Arsenal would make such a large version of their logo since all of their pices use a small logo. I have also doubted that Arsenal, known for their fine quality even before the war, would allow such a bad chrome plating job to leave the factory. And last, I have wondered why a camera like this would be made for the military just after the War since there were many regular FEDs and Leicas around for military use. The TSVVS was made at this time, but had special features that were different from FED and Kiev, and was a very high quality camera, which the military always demanded. The military logo of the hammer and sickle looks a bit 'off' as well.
All of these doubts and the poor quality of the cameras lead me to believe that the FED-Arsenals were not made at Arsenal, who after all was the factory chosen to receive the commission of building the Kiev cameras because they were so technically advanced. So given these qualities and my doubts and unless there was some documentary evidence to the contrary, I would not believe they were made there and are the work of a forger.
But I love the camera and have always considered it an important part of Soviet - Russian camera history because even the forgeries tell something important about Soviet Era cameras.
Regards, Bill
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 07 2015 : 5:07:19 PM
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Bill, thank you very much for your opinion, what really troubles me are the parts used of "unknown" origin which is very uncharacteristically of a forgery, thus the continued discussion about this piece.
Cheers,
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 07 2015 : 5:35:40 PM
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You are right Vlad. The engraving on the counter and speed dials looks amateur. Probably not factory engraved and made just to make up parts that the person who assembled and made the camera did not have available. It is hard for us collectors to understand today how a camera forger may have so little money and so little parts to make a camera to sell to pay the rent. But it was the case and may still be for some.
Regards, Bill
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1020 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 08 2015 : 09:44:00 AM
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This is a highly interesting topic, and I have to say, that in my eyes Bill's comments are also very logical!
Best regards,
Juhani |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 09 2015 : 7:06:08 PM
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Also, if the KMZ 'tomb' Mockba lens was made in 1948 for FED-Zorki, and it seems that the known examples of FED-Arsenal come with that lens, it does not seem probable that these cameras can have been made in 1946 or right after the war, as the story goes. And even if the FED-Arsenal was made as late as 1948 ,would KMZ actually make this Mockba lens for FED-Zorki and then send some to Arsenal? I would think that would probably make the statement on Abramov's site, "Based on some unsubstantiated claims, right after the war a small batch of the FED-1's was made on Arsenal and had a KMZ optics" somewhat suspect. Maybe they were fitted with the Mockba lenses to make them look to be from that time period?
Regards, Bill
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 08:53:42 AM
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Thanks, Bill, for your strong and logical argumentation.
Sure, I could have say the same (in French!) before having made some researches. Now, I am not so sure, more especially as there are "rumours" (I should say "certitudes") coming from Arsenal saying that one (or rather two) small series of these cameras were made at the factory just after the war. That my camera belongs to the first series or not is not really the problem: the main problem is: did these series ever exist?
That these cameras were made by the factory or a forger, it would be useful to check the non-Fed parts (of which I had spoken) to see if they are the same. And to check too if there are engravings inside which could give us indications. But it seems I am alone to have such a camera here!
You are absolutely right about the lens. Certainly a 1945 or 46 camera would be better with a "normal" Fed lens, not an Industar 22, even a Moskva "tomb" made in 1948. But I cannot completely follow you about the "amateurism" of the engravings: we don't know in which exact conditions they were made, and the immediate postwar was a troubled period... And if they were made by forgers, I am a bit surprised too that these cameras are always so rare.
Perhaps some of us know more? Anyway, for me, this camera is much more than a (perfect) item in my collection; it's a question!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 10 2015 09:01:45 AM |
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G.Franco Giordano
Francesco
Italy
35 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 12:50:33 PM
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Maybe a silly question: but in 1946-47 the Arsenal logo was still the classical "diamond" we know?
I remenber I saw a manual of a 1948 kiev 2 and there was no logo on the front page, only the name KIEV.
In my collection the oldest kiev logo is on a 1954 Jupiter 8.
Francesco |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 1:11:00 PM
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A perfect question, Francesco!
I have a manual of 1949 Kiev III, and there is no "diamond" logo as well...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 10 2015 : 2:24:06 PM
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According to Russian Wikipedia Arsenal logo as we know it (stylized letter "A") was introduced in 1950.
Cheers,
Vlad. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 11 2015 : 07:51:37 AM
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If this logo appeared in 1950,and if the information is confirmed, there is no more question!
It doesn't change anything to my pleasure to own this symbolic camera...
Thanks, Vlad. Jacques. |
Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 11 2015 07:52:32 AM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2015 : 03:17:58 AM
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Hi everybody.
Arsenal logo existed prior to 1950. You can see it on military optical devices, theodolites from 1947. If you are able to have a look on the Kiev camera instruction manual from 1947-1948 you will find this logo as well.
Concerning the Fed Arsenal camera it is genuine. Two versions are known: early with logo with hammer and sickle and later ones without hammer and sickle on the logo.
with best regards
altix |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 13 2015 : 12:02:01 PM
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Hi Altix,
Please tell us how you know FED-Arsenal is genuine. Can you show any photos of documents? When was the second series made and do you have photos of one of the cameras from the second series? Is this just what some collectors or dealers in Ukraine, or workers at Arsenal are saying, or is there documentary evidence such as a passport, manual, or factory document? Any information would be helpful.
Best regards, Bill
Regards, Bill
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2015 : 3:59:55 PM
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Dear Bill,
I do not know if some documents were preserved (except probably blueprints or documentation). I never saw any passport for this camera and the possibility that there exists one is zero. As far as i know nor more than 400 pieces were ever made. What I've heard is the recollections of old former workers. I trust them since many things what I've heard from them later was proved by documentations or some artifact finds. It is quite easy to find the documentation of more recent cameras and optics since some designers are still alive and they have their own archive. Of course workers or camera assemblers have no such drawings or documentation and they can only recollect what they saw.
I know that this sounds silly and you may not trust me since I cannot provide any documentation. Remember that Arsenal is strictly secret object even today and its archive is closed for any research. Almost everything that I could find about the early post-war period of Arsenal comes from the Zeiss Jena archives.
I told Jacques about the existence of this camera for a long time ago and I think he still does not believe in its originality despite he managed to buy one.
Concerning the second type of the FED Arsenal I put some photos with the agreement of the owner. I know the history of how this particular camera has found the new owner and I have no doubts about its originality (I will not tell you explicitly where this camera were previously but you can easily guess why I am so sure)
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372015_2.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372015_3.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372015_5.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372015_7.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372015_8.jpg
And concerning the Arsenal logo, here is some proof that it existed say in 1947
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372015_1a.jpg
with best regards
altix |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2015 : 4:17:00 PM
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Another little thing. The FED Arsenal was produced in another place as Kiev-Contax cameras. Here is this building
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372015_comparison.jpg
This is an old Arsenal workshop that more or less preserved after the war. So the munition and FED Arsenal was produced there. After the German equipment arrived and was installed in this building:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1372015_Arsenal.jpg
the production of optical devices were moved to the new workshops. Bill, your photo of the Kiev cameras inspection was done in the latter building (second floor). The third and the fourth floors were build in mid fifties.
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 13 2015 : 4:27:49 PM
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Altix, thank for you the information, very fascinating! Regarding my statement of Arsenal logo, my source was this:
https://goo.gl/X3cwLg
Just for the recordkeeping .
Cheers,
Vlad.
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2015 : 4:52:47 PM
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Dear Vlad,
you should take into account that Wikipedia cannot serve as a trustworthy source Fides sed affirmo - trust but verify.
altix |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 13 2015 : 8:37:53 PM
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Dear Alix,
Thank you for the photos of another copy of FED-Arsenal. They are helpful to compare with the other examples known. It is certainly not a question of trusting you, as I have seen your other posts to be informative, knowledgeable, and without bias. So, as you yourself have just said, "Fides sed affirmo - trust but verify". In this case, until some documentation is revealed or discovered, there will remain a question in my mind as to authenticity of FED-Arsenal.
The cameras were supposedly made around 1946 - 1950 and so any person working at Arsenal Zavod at that time was doing so at least 65 years ago. If they can remember how many were made of each of two series, but have no other details that would help to authenticate the memories, then it is not much of a story. So far, I have not heard anything that convinces me that these cameras are real and there are many facts that do not line up with the usual details that show authenticity.As well, I do not rule out that they are authentic and only write about it at all to try come to some reasonable answer.
There are many reasons to fake such a camera, and many reasons to proclaim it authentic, both involving mostly money, but also the pride of discovery and being part of history. I don't know why you say that there is zero possibility of passports existing? All cameras and equipment made for the Soviet military had passports. Indeed the known FED-Arsenals have serial numbers, so of course they had passports.
The TSVVS camera was made in a series of about 1000 and presently there are about 75 examples known and listed in our USSRPhoto.com WIKI. Why, if there were 400 FED-Arsenal cameras made are there only a few to be found. I know only of numbers: 00004 (Yuriy Davidenko) / 00020 (Bill Parkinson) / 00067 (Jacques Morin) / 00070 (mentioned as owned by a third party in Kiev, in correspondence I had with Yuriy Davidenko) / 00216 camera you have just shown / 00222 sold on Ebay by German seller in March 2010. So only six that I have heard about. If there were 400 FED-Arsenal cameras it would seem like more would be known, judging by how many TSVVS have survived out of 1000.
Maybe you can find out more about the story than just some workers remember them. Any details or documentation could be helpful as it does not seem that any of the historian - authors of Russian cameras has heard anything other than that they were made after the war, twice. I thank you and your friend for the images of No. 000216 and I'm sure Jacques may tell us what model FED it is made from.
Why would the one I owned, No.00020 have been made from a Zorki? Any ideas? Also, I have some photos of No. 000222 from Ebay if anyone wants to see them.
Best regards, Bill
Regards, Bill
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 05:55:14 AM
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Dear friends!
Delighted by this thread!
As Altix says, it's several months we have discussed together about postwar Arsenal productions: these exciting 1945/50 years. And when I saw this camera for sale... But even now I am not completely convinced, like Bill and for the same reason: there is no "material" certitude.
On the other hand, a very small series made from Fed parts is not such a problem. They can have been made unknown from the rest of the factory and be the task of an internal workshop with two or three persons. All the work is to assemble spare parts, to reingrave plates, and to make some spare parts which can be missing. The last task can be the most delicate, it's why I have insisted on it.
As for a possible passport... After all, we found nothing about the TSVVS, Bill... If we had passports or papers about this camera, we would know for sure where the TSVVS were made.
Concerning the low number of these Fed-Arsenal, I found mine only under the specification of "Fed". Nothing else: these cameras are not well known. Another possible explanation about the difference between the number of 400 cameras and those really found : that the covers were engraved, but the very bad condition of parts coming from Berdsk couldn't have allowed to mount the foreseen number. It could explain too why we find a Fed Arsenal cover on a Zorki 1b, later...
But all that are only guessings. Nevertheless, I must say that after Altix's pictures of Arsenal, I imagine a small team working on the mounting of these cameras...
Now, concerning the original Fed series of the 00216, showed by Altix, it's impossible to say without having it in hand. Is there a hole in the press film? If no, it's a post s/n c. 150000. Are the two plates magnetic? If Altix could put these two questions to his friend? But at first look, I would say that this camera was probably made from wartime Fed parts, exactly like mine. But the vulcanite seems different.
Something else: the frame counter is exactly the same too, on the two cameras, with a position of one pin at "12" (and at "32" on the other side, of course), never seen on a Fed. To compare with Bill's Fed-Arsenal, which has a normal Zorki frame with pins at 5/10 and 25/30. These famous missing parts...
It should be interesting to speak of the lens plate too, and of the choice of the lens: a very early "1 turn" on the s/n 00216. But I stop there!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 08:23:22 AM
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Hello everybody,
Jacques has already mentioned some points I also wanted to stress. I do not expect the existence of manuals for FED Arsenal for several reasons:
1. It seems that the FED Arsenal was produced for a very short time and was distributed among the workers. I always wondered how much care used to take the Arsenal directors about the workers. They gave a lot of commemorative pins and medals (I guess also with money premium) to Arsenal workers who assembled munition during the war. I expect that FED Arsenal was issued almost immediately after the war to reward the outstanding Arsenal workers who made a lot of effort during the war. If the manuals ever existed then they were most probably printed by FED as a standard manuals for FED.
2. Most probably the Arsenal factory did not possess its own typography at the end of the war. The typography equipment arrived in Arsenal from Jena factory and only in 1947 they were able to print manuals for Kiev on relative high level. If you look on the passports for the cameras they were produced by printing in dark room until 1951. If you look on the documentation for trophy military optics or theodolites from late forties, the instructions are of really bad quality.
3. The movement of the production line from one building to another could also cause the damage to documentation (but I still believe that the documents and blueprints if existed are in Arsenal archive)
When collecting the Soviet cameras you should always learn the psychology of Soviet citizen and the essence of plan economics. Some things sounds to unaware people insane but it was natural to do this in the context of that epoch in USSR. I can speak about this a long time. But let me give you some examples.
Let us take German optical industry in seventies. German engineers and optical designers develop new cameras and lenses. They do it since the new outstanding optical design can bring big material profit from selling the lens to German or foreign customers. There are some money invested in the project, some money you spend for materials and production costs. But at the end after selling the lens you got more money that you invest. You have a profit. It is very trivial and logical way of reasoning why Germans invest in new design developments. The system is optimized for getting profit.
Now let us consider the lens or camera production in Soviet Union also in seventies. There is a plan economics. Say Arsenal has also very brilliant engineers and optical designers. But they have limitations by plan economics to produce such a number of cameras that are able to shoot. At the same time the cost of the camera cannot go beyond some threshold since than nobody from Soviet citizens would be able to buy it. Usually the optimal solution is to produce the camera the production costs of which is almost the same as the selling price. In any case Arsenal workers will get their salaries from the state.
But where to get extra money for the factory itself? There is again the solution in plan economics. The factory asks money for the development of new optics or cameras that are more up to date or similar to the best designs from the West. And the state gives a lot of money for the development of the camera within 5 years plan. During this period appears the new camera and optics, the factory prints manuals and advertisement booklets. Than they report that they managed to create this camera and spent all money for the project. Then other persons in ministry decide if this camera and optics could be mass produced. They conclude that it is impossible since the cost of materials and assembling is so high that nobody would buy it. The factory shows the prototypes on State exhibition or even on some international exhibitions. At the end the prototypes could go to some photojournalists or to party bonze. Everybody is happy. There is also some logic here but it has nothing to do with the profit from the development of new technologies.
Another example that was very trivial for Soviet people and is hard to understand on the West that if you need to repair the broken camera you do itself (and could scratch it or destroy completely) or you go to the repairman who do the same thing as you with some probability of successful reparation since he has spare parts or know a little what to do. This guy is not much interested to preserve the originality of the camera or its beauty. He can replace any part he wants, he can scratch it or drill a hole (as on Iskra cameras) despite he can repair even without doing this. He always chooses the simplest and cheapest solution since he is not interested to do it well. At the end he will get for his work amount of money regulated by the state. Of course if you have the guarantee then you go to factory service where they perform reparation on a more or less good level. If you see the FED Arsenal camera with Zorki parts this only means that you are unlucky since the camera was some day repaired by somebody who had no idea that this camera would sometimes be interesting for the collectors.
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Edited by - altix on Jul 14 2015 10:45:41 AM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 08:46:58 AM
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Bill has mentioned here TSVVS and I find it interesting. I was very skeptical about the originality of TSVVS cameras for a long time (I speak about the genuine TSVVS excluding later fakes). My reasoning for that was exactly opposite to Bills argumentation. I asked myself why there exist so many TSVVS and with every year appears new and new known cameras? It looks very strange from the statistical point of view. I compared the frequency of TSVVS appearance with the frequency for another camera Drug (Droog or Zorki 7). Despite the fact that TSVVS is much more rare camera than Drug their frequencies in the last years are almost the same. That was for me the strong evidence for considering TSVVS as a fake camera. But a friend of mine gave me very simple explanation for this fact. Now I have no problems to consider TSVVS as genuine.
The reasoning is the following. TSVVS was distributed among the officers. These people had little to do with the photography. But for them the camera was a kind of memory of their platoon or probably the status thing. In USSR you could be considered as successful person if you had a car, a camera, a summer cottage, etc.
But the generation of these officers passed away recently and their relatives try to sell all rubbish left. Since almost all the time these cameras were never used they are good cosmetically and look great.
On the other hand Drug camera is not a reliable camera and many of them one can find in completely awful shape. I think many cameras ended their existence in trash bins.
For FED Arsenal the frequency of appearance is quite normal. However I afraid that after our discussions the market would be overflooded with fake FED Arsenal. Alas... |
Edited by - altix on Jul 14 2015 12:14:40 PM |
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1020 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 10:05:11 AM
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And more questions arise!
I did write this answer while at work, and now I see Altix has written mostly same ideas.
Military: Like Altix points out, TSVVS was a trophy and luxury item for high ranking officers, and not for field use. So they were not to be used in daily work, and I can think that many were kept as an investment for the bad day. Remember also all those anniversary cameras we have seen: many are hardly ever used ones.
Was this Arsenal-FED then that ordinary tool like camera, used eg for documenting war traces, and rebuilding? I have seen a lot of these pictures, so there was a need to photograph what was left after war. Even propaganda: we did rebuild everything this fast and well, destroyed by others. Or actually by the Soviet troops in many cases…
For those cameras there was a need. And I can imagine that if there was passports, they went to army records, not followed with cameras.
Some say that there was Leicas and such to use after war. I say the opposite. So much was lost, hidden and stolen in the chaos just after war. Even here in Finland it is as late as now, that these war time items have been popping up from the homes of war time soldiers. Those generations saved everything, and anything they could. It was not stealing when there was no physical owner, and it could save your own life someday. Even my grand dad had an illegal WWII-pistol in his drawer, and his children did not know of it until he died. Just like Altix wrote, again…
Also if the camera was a tool, the survival percentage must have been very low. Broken or lost and just thrown away when aged enough. Most likely these were not the worlds best made cameras: when you see the finish of Arsenal-made parts it is poor. More poor “fast made replacement” parts inside?
Some hundred units: were these meant for Red army in the just occupied Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, Baltic countries, Czechoslovak and so on? Where there was no Red army from past, but a need for all inventory.
Bills odd camera with too new insides? Maybe it was a factory-repaired one? I can imagine that it has been easier to repair an old one, than purchasing a new camera in Soviet bureaucracy. A couple of years error could still be possible.
Best regards,
Juhani |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 11:17:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by altix
Dear Vlad,
you should take into account that Wikipedia cannot serve as a trustworthy source Fides sed affirmo - trust but verify.
altix
I completely agree, I just pointed out that this was the only source I have found on the web that dates the logo in any way at all. Doesn't mean it's accurate .
Cheers,
Vlad |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 2:42:40 PM
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Hello All,
Yes, it is possible that the FED-Arsenal was assembled at the Arsenal Zavod in Kiev and that::
1. There were no passports made or all have been lost or are still in archives somewhere.
2. That Arsenal had no means of printing anything.
3. That movement from one building to another caused a loss of FED-Arsenal documents.
4. That it was made unknown from the rest of the factory by two or three workers.
5. The workmanship and chrome-plating were poor due to end of War problems.
6. That the condition of parts from Berdsk was bad and so new parts had to be fabricated upon occasion.
7. The top plate was ground down to eliminate previous FED engravings and then an Arsenal logo was added with a 'FED" engraving as well.
8. That the Soviet military was in desperate need to 200 cameras to photograph war damage and rebuilding.
9.That the Soviet military was okay with poor chrome-plating and engraving due to urgent need.
10. That very few cameras survived due to hard use.
11. That soon many more FED-Arsenals will turn up from relatives.
12. That the vulcanite on the various known examples could vary in style.
13. That old former workers have said that from 65 years ago they remember the camera (among the many cameras made by Arsenal).
But it is also possible that the FED-Arsenal is the work of early forgers who:
1. Never made passports.
2. Had no means of printing passports, did not think it necessary to have one, or were not capable of making them.
3. Was made by one or two forgers, unknown from others in general.
4. Performed poor, at-home electro-plating with chrome over the newly ‘FED-Arsenal’ top plate which had been previously ground to remove old FED or Zorki engraving.
5. Poor workmanship due to lack of sophisticated tools and machine tools.
6. That the “FED” engraving was added, along with the Arsenal logo just to make the camera more attractive to buyers. (Seems like the camera would
just have Arsenal logo if made at Arsenal.)
7. There was no need by the military at the time to have an extra 200 cameras made to photograph war damage and rebuilding.
8. That the military would not have accepted the standards of poor chrome job, replacement parts and varying vulcanite and would have specifications
in mind when making the order for 200 cameras.
9. That many more than are now known would have survived, as is usual with FED cameras.
10. That not so many more will turn up (remains to be seen).
11. That different vulcanite coverings are due to different camera bodies being used by forgers which already had the vulcanite in place.
12. That the former workers were not there 65 years ago, their memories are not accurate, or they remember seeing one in the Arsenal Museum, but that the one in the museum was not authentic. Evidently, the worker who remembers it was not working at Arsenal until 1952, I am told.
13. That the FED-Arsenal No.000020 was made by forgers using a Zorki body, not anticipating the scrutiny of the details that the camera is now receiving, but only
wanting to make another camera to sell
Although I would not like to close my mind to the idea that the FED-Arsenal has a possibility to be authentic, I would also not consider the theories advanced, so far, as proof that it is authentic. Of course Arsenal Zavod is one of the great camera factories, but that alone does not mean the camera is authentic. It is easy for theories that are not documented to be published and republished, making them appear to be fact when no real proof has been offered.
For example, look at Yuriy Davidenko’s article about TSVVS being produced at ALMAZ. He provides no proof, only writing about the factory, their rocket production, etc. but nothing about that TSVVS was produced there. Now his theory is in books, the internet, forum posts and WIKIs. Personally, I still think that TSVVS has a possibility to have been produced for the Soviet Military in Eastern Germany, that may be why no passports (but another subject altogether). It seems to me that FED-Arsenal is in this process of becoming authenticated without fact, both in this discussion as well as in a film about Arsenal that I am told about (but I have not seen the film or the role the FED-Arsenal plays in it yet).
Sorry for the long post!
Regards, Bill
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 3:56:27 PM
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Dear Bill,
you are absolutely correct. One cannot be hundred percent sure in matters like this. A reasonable skepticism is always good. For me the word "proof" always means the mathematical proof. Mathematics is the only discipline that can be objective. Concerning different proofs based on documents or other evidences it is always a little bit tricky. You should always keep in mind that documents could be modified depending on political situation or could be influenced by the viewpoint of the person who wrote them. The technical documentation is the most precise in this sense. Say if I would forger the documents I would do easily booklets or advertisements. But it would be almost impossible for me to fake the technical documentation since I do not posses the engineering knowledge. And of course the mechanics or optical design is based on extensive mathematical calculations that are hard to fake by nonspecialists since it can be easily found out.
So from the purist point of view I would accept as proof for camera originality only its technical documentation. Of course such an approach leads to nowhere in the case of Soviet cameras. This is because in the USSR many factories that produced toys and cameras were secret military objects. Actually camera or toys production was kind of legend for foreign secret services. Say the heart of Arsenal was the constructor bureau that dealt with military optics and space technologies. And workshop with cameras was something for camouflage. And of course you will get the trouble if you would like to have a look on technical drawings from such factories. They are probably exist but under the seal top secret. It may sound strange may sound like this is good explanation from the standpoint of forger but it is unfortunately the reality I faced with.
Concerning FED Arsenal the story is that I am more sure that the camera existed than it is a fake. There are many arguments pro this decision and I do not see any reasonable argument counter this statement. But you can charge from the purist viewpoint that this is my own belief. But analogously you should admit that TSVVS camera is also probably forgery since nobody saw any technical documentation on this camera. I would say however that the TSVVS is genuine since I have many arguments that supports the statement that it is genuine and almost no arguments against.
I am also sorry for my long discussions.
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Edited by - altix on Jul 14 2015 4:06:53 PM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 4:43:47 PM
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Hi Alix,
If this camera was a forgery and the forger made some documents, I can imagine that it would be easy to tell that the documents were forged as they would be of a low quality. I am not a purist and could believe that this camera was authentic if there were some other type of proof or strong indications, like in the case of TSVVS. But so far, other than some stories that are not verified and are more like memories, I don't see indications that it is authentic. If it is authentic I doubt this camera was a secret military project. Especially the 'second series' and paperwork would have been made.It is not the case that most Soviet cameras were made without paperwork ... even the KGB workshop of KMZ had manual, passports, etc. as I know because I have the papers and cameras-disguises in my collection. So, in my opinion it is not likely that these cameras would not have papers if authentic.
As far as the "FED-Arsenal story", I am not clear as to what arguments are pro about it. I have only heard that a FED-Arsenal was bought from the Arsenal Museum and that a former employee who is 86 and started working at Arsenal in 1952 has memories of it. That alone is not enough to tip the scales in favor of authenticity considering variations in the details of the different examples, the poor quality of the plating, the ground-down looking top plates, no documentation as of now, and why the logo of FED was engraved on a supposedly Arsenal product (no one has yet addressed that double logo issue or pointed out another Soviet camera that has the logo of two factories).
I don't know where TSVVS was made, but I see no evidence of ALMAZ even though many sites are now saying that it is "ALMAZ TSVVS". This is all due to Davidenko's article which has no facts concerning the camera's origin. People are hungry for answers and will take any theory as truth just to have an answer. Maybe there is evidence for ALMAZ that I have not seen?
So, I don't think it isa good idea to authenticate the FED-Zorki until there is clear information that it is not a fake, Maybe there is no clear information and it is a fake. It is better to leave it up in the air, in my opinion, until the truth is certain or the known facts overwhelmingly point to one or the other. Maybe we will finally know when Vlad (who is very fair, careful, and open-minded) moves the WIKI entry to either the "Arsenal" category or "Unidentified / Contested Authenticity" category!
Regards, Bill
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 5:27:10 PM
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Dear Bill,
I did not get the point why FED Arsenal was a secret military camera. I personally said that it was most probably issued for Arsenal workers. No wonder that the finish was of low quality. Prior to 1946 Arsenal was by no means connected with optical or camera production. The chrome plating is involved technology that was completely new for Arsenal workers immediately after the war.
FED logo has little to do with FED factory it only refers to well known brand. Everybody heard in Soviet Union about the Soviet Leica - FED. FED Arsenal is like "Fritz Cola" that has little to do with "Coca-Cola" or "Pepsi-Cola". Similar story is with the early FED-Zorki.
I think the following discussion makes no sense since again it is the matter of belief. You don't believe that FED Arsenal is genuine. Fine. I accept your skepticism. At the same time I do not see any reasonable disproof of my statement that it is genuine. I don't think that I need to search for some mean forgers that managed to create the very complicated scheme how to fool us and who put the FED Arsenal camera in the factory museum. Probably these mean forgers pay me now the salary and I try to pose the camera as genuine. I think the world is not so complicated.
with best regards
altix
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 14 2015 : 5:54:36 PM
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Dear Alix,
You are wrong. I don't believe that FED-Arsenal is fake. And I don't believe it is authentic. At this time I can see that it could be a fake or it could be authentic. I am not trying to convince anyone either way and I like the FED-Arsenal either way. This is why I have written all of the information I have. I only think that it is better to withhold judgement and look at the facts as they become available. No doubt more information will become available over time. You are the one who has the belief that it is authentic, as you have said, "At the same time I do not see any reasonable disproof of my statement that it is genuine."
I didn't say that mean forgers put the camera in the museum. It is what you call, in the art world, provenance. If in a museum then there would be some records of when it was added to the museum collection and it also should be in mint condition if acquired by the museum directly from the factory when made. If it was not acquired by the museum when made and was acquired at a later time, then who donated or sold it to the museum. And, did the museum curator of the collection keep records? If it was stolen from the museum in the 1990's then there is no history that came with it. If it was not taken from the musem, how did it come into private hands. I am just saying that if these questions are answered, then there is meaningful provenance. That is all. If the questions can't be answered then the story does not mean so much as far as authenticating the camera and where it originated.
I have never talked about 'mean forgers' and no doubt many forgers are very nice people just trying to make a living. I have no problem with fakes or the people who make them.You are the one with all of these complicated thoughts about forgers and paying you, etc.
Would, in your opinion, the Arsenal factory be allowed to put the military logo of hammer and sickle on a camera made for workers?
Regards, Bill
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2015 : 12:23:33 AM
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Dear Bill,
I don't believe that military Arsenal logo is a certain proof that the cameras that bears it was initially assembled for military. It is a tendency that every military device from late forties- early fifties has military logo but is not true that every civil product from that time should have the logo without hammer and sickle. For me the proof of military camera or military device is the presence of the inventory number. There are a lot of Arsenal civil products from early fifties that bear the military logo. Just one example
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1572015_1.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1572015_2.jpg
But of course I cannot exclude that the first batch was produced by request of military.
regards
altix |
Edited by - altix on Jul 15 2015 12:50:20 AM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 15 2015 : 01:20:17 AM
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Alix,
What kind of item is that in the photos? Do you think that one (with hammer and sickle) is for military and the other (without hammer and sickle) is civilian model? On the items I have seen, from all factories, the hammer and sickle always denotes made for the military.
And in any case, unless I find or hear new information, I don't have much more to add about FED-Arsenal. My opinion is, that I am open to authenticity, but I am not convinced at this time from what I have heard and seen. Thanks for the photos and info.
Regards, Bill
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2015 : 02:26:26 AM
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| I showed the containers for film cassettes that were produced for civil market. The earlier one has logo with hammer and sickle. Just to show that this logotype does not mean that the item was produced for military purposes. I think that time nobody paid much attention which logo to put on the product. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 15 2015 : 12:49:38 PM
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Hi Alix,
Thank you for the photos. Maybe Arsenal was very used to having the hammer and sickle in their logo as they were primarily a military factory before and during WWII.
To All,
I have made changes to the FED-Arsenal entry, that was originally made by myself, to reflect the current information available and the discussion as to it's authenticity. Please feel free to edit, add photos and details about individual examples of FED-Arsenal cameras to the entry.
Also, although I am not personally convinced of it's authenticity at this time, I no longer think the entry for FED-Arsenal belongs in the category "Modified & Fantasy Cameras" and would be better classified in our WIKI as either "Unidentified / Contested Authenticity" or possibly a new category of "Arsenal"
if the consensus of our members is that the FED-Arsenal is for sure authentic and made at the factory. Maybe a discussion of the appropriate category would be helpful.
.
Regards, Bill
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Guido Studer
Guido
Switzerland
362 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 15 2015 : 2:31:35 PM
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Hello my friends
Thank you very much for this very interesting discussion about this rare cameras. I have no final opinion on the question of authenticity.
The FED-Arsenal remember me much to the FED-KMZ, only the FED engravings are not exectly the same (regular vs. italic). On the other hand the FED-Zorki with a more rounded FED logo.
Could it be that Arsenal was selected to produce a FED like camera in the years after the war and then the desicion was changed because the Contax production moved to them and KMZ was selected to continue the program? Only a guess ...
I think poor engravings and chroming says much about the authenticity of the camera, a fake would be much more perfect at my opinion.
For the category ... "Kiev / Arsenal - ..." looks wrong for me, "Arsenal - Kiev ..." and "Arsenal - other" would be better and the FED-Arsenal could be sorted in the last category.
By the way about categories ... I just saw a so called "FED-Zorki Jura" as a "fantasy camera" ... "*FED-Zorki* Jura"! I think we will be d'accord about the fact this was a Zorki (1d or 1e), so "Zorki Jura" should be the better choice. No, I don't want to change it, but if someone agrees with me he will do the change.
Best wishes - Guido
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2015 : 3:18:59 PM
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Hello!
For the moment, I have no idea about the place where this camera must be put... Perhaps we could wait a bit before changing something.
I am gathering some different detailed informations about the 00067 and the 00216, so that we have an idea when the important parts were made, if there are differences or if they are homogeneous. I will let you know, of course!
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 16 2015 : 07:33:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Guido
I think poor engravings and chroming says much about the authenticity of the camera, a fake would be much more perfect at my opinion.
Interesting remark! I wouldn't have thought of that. Thanks, Guido.
The magnetic parts of the Feds can help to date them. To be as precise as I can:
- the shutter boxes were made in brass up to the s/n c. 12xxxx. So, non magnetic. Magnetic after until the end of the 1e series (c. 184xxxx). Then, NKAPs and the first 1f have shutter boxes made in brass again, before it turns to magnetic metal up to the end of Fed 1.
- the two plates are first made of chrome brass, then of chrome magnetic metal from the s/n c. 15xxxx up to the end of the 1e (184xxx). In fact, during WW2. Certainly Fed had other uses for brass at that time. After, the plates of NKAP, 1f and 1e are always made of non magnetic metal.
But I am not 100% sure of my NKAP, so, if Alexander could check on his camera?
Of course, I don't speak of the cover which is never made of magnetic metal (as far as I know).
Concerning the hole in the press film, it disappears at c. 15xxxx. It allowed to regulate the camera/lens with the corresponding hole in the back of the camera. This hole in the camera had disappeared years before!
That question of magnetic properties was initiated by Niko80 on this site. Of course, there can be exceptions (repairs, remountings, etc).
On the cameras s/n 00067 and 00216,
- there is no hole in the press film,
- the shutter box and the plates are made of magnetic metal.
So, I am sure that they were made between s/n c. 15xxxx and 184xxx, corresponding to the years 1940/41 or 1940/46, depending on where we put the 1e Berdsks: that's another question!
I try to find something about the original parts now: view counter, winding button and speed dial.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 16 2015 07:33:40 AM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 16 2015 : 5:32:11 PM
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Hello everyone,
Concerning FED-Arsenal No. 00020.
It is possible to tell the difference between the rangefinder housing of a Zorki and the rangefinder housing of a FED by looking at photos. Specifically, if you look, from the top, at the shape outline of each, it can be seen that FED rangefinder housings look to have been hand-filed and are less square towards the rear section (where most of the engraving is). They look hand-shaped or hand-finished. The Zorki rangefinder housing, when looked at from the top seems more squared off, possibly more finished by machine than by hand. The Zorki has an almost strict right angle around the accessory shoe, where the FED has a slightly 'wavey' or bent look to the line, somewhat uneven as though hand finished - filed. Probably this is due to a slightly different and more advanced manufacturing process and technique at KMZ or more advanced machinery used at KMZ since they were a more modern plant. I have always noticed this and have used it to determine if cameras that had mismatched parts (rangefinder housing to body).
From looking and comparing photos, it seems that FED-Arsenal No. 00020 has a Zorki rangefinder housing (more squared in the outlines, seen from the top) that matches it's Zorki body. In other words, the camera is totally a Zorki, not a Zorki with an older FED rangefinder housing. If that is the case, then it would mean the camera was a Zorki when engraved with the FED-Arsenal logo and number. I have no doubts that the No. 00020 camera is the same as the other FED-Arsenal cameras as far the engraved logo and number details, in every way. I can not imagine that No. 00020 is a fake of an authentic FED-Arsenal camera as I bought it nine years ago (in October of 2006) when the others had not yet come to light and there was little or no discussion of this camera. If correct, this would point towards at least one FED-Arsenal "first series" being made from a later Zorki, not matching the time line of the FED-Arsenal story and not something a factory would be likely to do
Below are some comparison photos showing the rangefinder housings.
FED-1c
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1672015_FED 1.jpg
Zorki-1b
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1672015_Zorki 1.jpg
FED-Arsenal No. 00020 (Zorki body)
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1672015_FED-Arsenal 1.jpg
Auction of FED-Arsenal No. 00020
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1672015_No.20 Auction.jpg
Regards, Bill
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2015 : 04:03:51 AM
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Hello,
There is another detail which is interesting to consider: the hollow which let the rewind lever move freely, on the cover.
That feature, on my s/n 164433:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1772015_DSCF2215.JPG
On Feds, this hollow is more or less square. And it exists on the prewar and wartime series (1c to 1e) without interruption. We find it again on the first postwar 1f, up to c. s/n 220000, then it disappears (my 1f s/n 232140):
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1772015_DSCF2218.JPG
On Zorkis, it is there on the first series. For example, on my Fed-Zorki s/n 03278:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1772015_DSCF2217.JPG
On Zorkis, this hollow exists too on the 1a and a part of the 1b, then it disappears. Note that on Zorkis, it is more rectangular than on Feds.
This hollow is present on the covers of the Fed-Arsenals 00004 and 00067. It is absent on the 00020 and 00216. I don't know for the others. As the engravings have exactly the same characteristics, they were for sure made at the same time, when covers without hollow existed, probably in the very early 1950 years.
So, I share Bill's opinion: certainly these cameras were not made in 1946/47.
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Edited by - Jacques M. on Jul 17 2015 04:12:49 AM |
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alzo
8 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2015 : 06:19:52 AM
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Dear all,
I consider your argumentation about the hollow is insufficient for proving that the camera is fake. This hollow was made after the main shape of top plate was stamped. Otherwise you would be unable to take away the stamped detail from the stamping form. The absence of the hollow on the top plate can only tell about the simplification of the manufacturing procedure. It cannot serve as a proof that the top plate was used from the late Zorkis where the manufacture procedure was also simplified. As I see the top plates of FED, FED Arsenal and FED-Zorki have different geometry that says only that the stamping forms in three cases were different.
For final resolution of the puzzle we will need the documents from Arsenal plant or to perform, say, the spectral analysis of alloys that were used in production of top plates for FED Berdsk, FED Arsenal and FED-Zorki. I consider these both verification approaches are much better than any attempts to discuss the camera originality based on recollections of former Arsenal workers or on the shape and geometry of the top plate.
with best regards
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 17 2015 : 07:26:49 AM
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Hi Alzo,
If I understand well, you consider that there were some non-stamped covers left, and that these covers could have been used to make some Fed-Arsenals? Why not... That would explain why some cameras have this hollow, while others don't.
I must say too that there were several different "forms" to make the covers, at Fed's, sometimes used at the same time. So, a specific shape is not a proof in itself: it should be crossed with other specifications. Too long and hazardous.
So, yes, a spectral analysis would certainly be interesting...
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 17 2015 : 12:04:26 PM
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To all,
At present there is lack of documents from Arsenal and no passports or other official documentary evidence has been found, such as mention of this production at Arsenal in one of the magazines like Sovetskoe Foto. If the camera is fake there will never be authentic documents found and so lack of known documents can not be seen as proof that the camera may be authentic. It has been 65 years since the hypothetical production of FED-Arsenal, a long time for some documentary evidence to surface, as it has with many production details of different cameras, including the very secret KGB cameras and documentation of their manufacture. It is not enough, in my opinion, just to say that Arsenal was a secret factory.
Of course the small indentation near the rewind lever, that Jacques has mentioned and shown with close-up photos, can and was in the original stamping of the rangefinder housing, and not hand-stamped later. It will easily lift up from the stamping form by just lifting the piece out from the other side. The hollow is quite shallow and anyone with knowledge of metal stamping and die work will see this instantly.
In any case, it is almost beyond belief that rangefinder housings would be found without this detail as it would have been done at the same time as the initial stamping, even if for some reason they were hand-stamped. I think this theory is over the top and just being offered so as not to give up hope of origin at Arsenal.
All of the photographs of the different known FED-Arsenals appear to have the rangefinder housing of a Zorki, with the squared off-shape, rather than the somewhat uneven shape of the FED housing. This is very clear from photos of all examples that I have listed in the revised WIKI article of this site, with the exception of No. 00070 of which there are no known photos.
If all the examples of FED-Arsenal have Zorki rangefinder housings on either older FED bodies, or in the case of No. 00020, a Zorki body, then it is clear that the rangefinder housings were engraved at a later time and affixed to old cameras to deceive. It is pretty clear.
A comparison of spectral analysis of the metallic alloy content of various housings would be fine, but would have to be done by a well-known accredited - certified laboratory. Not just sent off to a participant of this discussion. But the subject parts be sent directly to the lab and the official results sent back from the lab. In this way the results would not be contested. I think it would be proof that the FED-Arsenal parts are of KMZ origin, but the tests would tell for sure.
And, lastly, concerning documents from Arsenal. Any documents that would suddenly become available in the near future, just after this highly public controversy, would need to be tested for authenticity, compared to other documents from Arsenal, and probably be tested for age.
I have followed and participated in the arguments concerning this camera quite closely, as you all know. I no longer own a FED-Arsenal and have not written a book or made a film that declares it to be authentic or a fake. I have written the initial entry for FED-Arsenal in the USSRPhoto.com WIKI and have recently edited it to reflect the uncertain status discussed by members of this forum. I have no monetary interest in whether it would be authentic or not and I am no longer a collector of Soviet or Russian cameras but I studied all aspects of Soviet, post Soviet, and pre-Soviet cameras for almost 20 years.
Considering the evidence and details that have been talked about and shown in photos, and the lack of any proof to the contrary, I now believe the FED-Arsenal camera is an older fake using re-engraved Zorki rangefinder housings added to old FED bodies and that the FED-Arsenal was never in production at the Arsenal Zavod. The cameras themselves tell the story, as always. Information from non-verified sources and unproven theories with no documentation do not take the place of the evidence and details visible and obvious on the cameras themselves.
Regards, Bill
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alzo
8 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2015 : 04:29:38 AM
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Dear Bill,
Since you have studied all the aspects of Soviet cameras can you please describe the process of metall stamping of the top plate with a hollow?. I have the problem to understand how it is possible to stamp the top plate with the hollow in one stamping run. I can only imagine how to do this using two runs with two different stamping forms. Sorry to ask this probably trivial question. Thank you in advance for detailed explanation.
faithfully yours |
Edited by - alzo on Jul 18 2015 04:51:07 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2015 : 10:39:58 AM
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Hi Alzo!
On thinking of the possibility of a spectrographic analysis, I wonder if it would really give us the solution of the problem, contrarily to what I have said above. Sorry...
I try to explain.
I suppose that the analysis will be made by comparison with another part, which will be the model. For example, the cover of a Fed 1e "Berdsk" and the one of your 00216. It's perfect if the result is positive. But what do we know exactly about this 1e cover? Is it different by its composition from a 1d or a 1f? Or even from an early Zorki's? I fear that we don't really solve the problem: we only change the question.
And even if it is proved that the 00216 cover is absolutely like a Fed Berdsk's (by it composition or whatever else) and that the series of these cameras is coherent, we won't know where, when and by whom this cover was engraved.
Here is the "hollow" on my Fed-Arsenal's cover. As you can see, it's a Fed type one. The camera is coherent and can be made of Fed Berdsk parts only. But that doesn't tell me if there is a series of Fed-Arsenals...
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1872015_DSCF2220.JPG
(sorry for the paint -not removed- of a precedent owner!)
Perhaps things would be better on analysing the odd spare parts, specially this very interesting counter frame I had never seen before. But in that case, what will be the model for the comparison?
I fear that you will find much more questions than solutions. To protocol should be hard. But I'm not a scientist!
For me, it would be better to look for original papers of the factory, if it is possible. If not, probably this question will join the non-solved cases...
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 18 2015 : 11:53:38 AM
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Dear Alzo,
Although I am quite familiar with the details of the die and stamping process (from a former job at a manufacturing company), I am afraid it is beyond the scope of this forum and my own time constraints to explain them in detail. With some time and research, you can learn them on your own. You will see that it is not difficult or unusual to stamp a shape such as this (including the small hollow) in one stamping, and would be easy to remove from the form by just lifting out. In fact, it would be done this way. Even in the case of a more complicated shape that could not be done in one stamping, the second stamping would be done at the consecutively, at the same time as part of the process and it would not happen that the parts would be left unfinished for another time. It would be very unlikely that a group of parts would be left unfinished, shipped to another location, and then finished before assembly. This is a very weak argument and scenario to hinge the authenticity of this camera on. You will find this out if you research the process and examine the interior of this particular part.
Regards, Bill |
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alzo
8 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2015 : 12:14:46 PM
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| Thank you very much for your detailed and comprehencive answer of stamping with hollow. I meant that time is most precious resource - it comes and never comes back. Sorry for my bad English. |
Edited by - alzo on Jul 18 2015 2:03:00 PM |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Jul 18 2015 : 1:21:01 PM
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OK Alzo, if you feel that way.
Regards, Bill
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xya
France
159 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2015 : 03:28:24 AM
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| concerning the stamp form: there are forms that consist of multiple parts for complicated shapes. same for the upper press that can consist 2 or 4 parts that join in pressing. after the stamping you take out a more regular part of the form in the middle, this liberates the other parts. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 07:42:24 AM
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In the following I plan to show you several documents that show that FED was produced in Kiev after WWII. I am very appreciated my friend Alzo who did a great job while searching in libraries and archives and who was very kind to share his findings with me and you.
The first document is from Ukrainian State Kinofotofonoarchiv http://tsdkffa.archives.gov.ua/.
It is dated by 13. February 1945. NKW is people's commissariat of armament.
To narkom of armament
of USSR
comrade Ustinov D. F.
Until September 1941 cameras FED were produced in Kharkov by factory 296 NKAP, which in November 1942 transferred all its equipment, devices, incomplete production and documentation on cameras FED and it accessories to factory No 237 NKW.
Taking into account that the factory No 237 does not work on the reconstruction of FED cameras production, I ask you to assign to the factory No 237 to transfer all equipment, devices, incomplete production and documents on cameras FED and it accessories, according to acceptance certificate betwen the factory No 296 NKAP and the factory No 237 NKW - Ukropromsovet, which according our order organizes the cameras production in Kiev city.
I ask you also assist in starting of production of photographic cameras by optical equipment and control-measuring tools from factories of NKW:
a) Equipment 23 items (appendix 1)
b) Control-measuring equipment 26 items (appendix 2)
Chairmen of Union of People's Commissariat of Ukrainian Soviet Socialistic Republic
N. Khrushchev
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p1.jpg
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p2.jpg
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 09:36:14 AM
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The second document is the article in Ukrainian newspaper "Radians'ka Ukraina" (Soviet Ukraine) dated by 12 Oktober 1945. The original one can find in Vernadsky National Library of Ukraine (department of newspapers) http://www.nbuv.gov.ua/.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p3.jpg
Here is the article "Peaceful Arsenal"
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p5.jpg
I rewrite here the full version in Ukrainian. If you would like to read it whole use Google Translator. The most interesting place is here "... But there are some first tries. There is something that makes the words of factory director K. Smirnov real. He says that soon here would appear the camera on which people would search usual trademark FED but would find another - a Kiev one. "
Мирний Арсенал
Палає вогонь у горні. Від полум'я червоніє сталь, міцно затиснута довгими кліщами. Скільки років дивиться в полум'я горна своїми вже натрудженими очима коваль Михайло Піорко! Йому вже 69 років, 44 з них він на цьому заводі. Історія заводу - біографія старика.
Доля заводу стала долею його людей. Та ось спіткало велике нещастя коваля Михайла Піорка і, здається, як би не мінявся завод, ніяк не вплине ця зміна на його долю - синів вже не піднімеш. Один в 1941 році вів літак над Прибалтикою, літак зробив своє діло, але льотчик, - похмуро говорить батько, - приземлився навічно. А другий... Скільки ще разів зазеленіють дерева на широкому бульварі Шевченка, тягтимуться до сонця, наллються соками нові віти. Загубиться серед них і та, навколо якої обвилася мотузка, туго зав'язана німцем, щоб другим кінцем намертво задавити горло двадцятирічному хлопцеві. І під тінь тих вітів ніколи не прийде вже з дівчиною Василь Піорко.
З трьох синів залишився єдиний. Сумно було в напіврозваленому будинку коваля. Він та стара - ще на Уралі. Старого надіслали сюди, а син ще точив деталі для гармат, таких гармат, що їх - скільки пам'ятає старий - так багато випускав його рідний Арсенал.
Війна невблаганно втрутилася в історію заводу і біографію коваля. Війна інесла поправки в земний профіль України. Зорана снарядами, здиблена динамітом, вдавлена бомбами наша земля. Гори руїн піднялися над рівнинами міст і селищ. Багато треба вирівнювати. Треба заново нанести на карту профіль землі, вирваної з німецького пекла, щоб потім по цій карті креслити нову.
І ковалеві Піорку, що все життя кував деталі для цехів, які робили гармати, після повернення на рідний Арсенал довелося сильніше роздути горно, взяти в руки кліщі і міцніше затиснути в них нову деталь для нового заводу, що створюється на рештках старого. Цей новий завод дасть і вже подекуди дає те, що в воєнний час озброює око наводчика, мінера, флотоводця, а в час мирний - око геодезиста, дослідника, будівельника. Людина, що робила гармати, разом з своїми товарищами здобуває нову професію, і в ній багато такого, що виходить за рамки звичайного збагачення виробничого досвіду.
Колись німці вихвалялися: "Люди всього світу дивляться крізь оптику Цейса". Німецька оптика вважалася неперевершаною. До неї зверталися, як до найдосконалішого еталона. Проте і найдосконаліші скла, через які солдати Гітлера вже навіть виразно бачили Москву і Ленінград, не врятували німців.
І ось у стінах колишнього заводу, зруйнованого, скаліченого, ми знаходимо перші ознаки нового. Він тільки створюється. Коваль Михайло Піорко кує для нього деталі машин. Прибувають ешелони з устаткуванням. Його монтують, встановлюють у нашвидку пристосованих цехах. І вже гудуть мотори. Серед хаосу руїн вже обертаються розумні, зовсім нові для Києва верстати, і варто побути тут дві - три години, щоб стати свідком чудесного перетворення.
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 09:51:59 AM
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| It is worth to note here that the author of the article mentioned Carl Zeiss and new "smart" equipment and tools, brought by trains, that were continuously mounted and some of which were already in use. Probably here is mentioned equipment from Dresden plants of Zeiss Ikon. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 10:05:46 AM
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Грубий, непрозорий шматок скла. Його бере у майстра дівчина, що прийшла на завод з колгоспу. Вона обліплює таким склом чавунний грибок і встановлює на обдиральному верстаті. Потім інша дівчина, теж ще новачок, переставляє грибок на шліфувальний верстат. Він майже беззвучно обертається, і ще через деякий час вже зовсім прозоре, відшліфоване скло переходить у руки полірувальниці. Від неї ще до однієї жінки, яка повинна зробити це скло шедевром точності - вивірити його оптичний фокус. Але й ця жінка тут новачок. Потім невидимий шар бальзаму міцно з'єднує обидва скельця лінзи, і вона переходить в руки тих, хто повинен зробити лінзу деталлю складних геодизичних приладів - нівелірів, кіпрегелів та приладів інших, що ними користуються люди військові.
Не можна вразити радянських людей, сказавши, що тут роблять речі з точністю до десятих часток мікрона. Але, коли талановитий радянський оптик, киянин Віктор Йосипович Іванов запрошує подивитися, як від наближення його пальця до трубки камерного високочастотного рівня рівень приходить у рух, бо на його вплинуло тепло, що вилучається пальцем, то як було не здивуватися, що всі ці понадточні вироби народжуються у цехах, де ще не прибрано пил руїн, де лютують протяги, де крейда ще не всюди вкрила на стінах сліди диму від пожеж? Як було не здивуватися, коли головна лінія потоку в цеху понадточних рівнів розмістилася в... тісній конторці начальника цеху, а вивірку рівнів робили просто на підвіконні? |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 10:16:52 AM
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Here it is very interesting information that high-precision instruments like theodolites were produced in dusty draughty workshops with traces of fires left on the walls. The calibration and tests of devices were performed on window-sill in small office of workshop head. These optical devices were assembled by ex-dairymaids. No wonder that chrome plating on FED Arsenal is very poor.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1292015_p7.jpg
Here is the picture from this newspaper that shows these ex-dairymaids. "Senior controller of assembling workshop of Kiev plant, where the director is com. Smirnov, N. M Koronina and controller O.A. Kozlova accept the new levels".
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 10:42:27 AM
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Скажімо відверто - нема ще заводу в повному розумінні цього слова. Але є наслідки першої проби сил. Є те, що робить реальними розповіді директора заводу К. Смірнова про те, що мине декілька місяців, і звідси вийде у світ фотоаппарат, на якому шукатимуть звичну марку "ФЕД", а знайдуть іншу - київську. А потім вийде ще один апарат, що буде останнім словом сучасної фототехніки і успішно змагатиметься щодо якості з "Лейцем" і "Контаксом". Віриш, що слідом за першими оптичними верстатами, що їх власними силами зібрав завод, почнеться серійний випуск цих верстатів. Віриш також в те, що селище заводу, про проект якого так захоплено розповідає нам депутат арсенальців у Верховній Раді УРСР Андрій Васильович Душко, дійсно виросте і дасть притулок тим, хто покищо тулиться в тісноті, а іноді ночує і в заводському клубі, і в конторі, бо надто вже багато арсенальських жител зруйнував вогонь.
Віриш, бо бачиш, як працюють люди і що це за люди. Відмовляється від відпустки і заклопотано бігає по цеху білобородий Іванов, людина дивної творчої вигадки, віртуоз своєї справи. Залишає Ленінград уже літня жінка Віра Іванівна Большакова і їде в Київ вчити жінок новій складній справі, і вже тут вона дістає звання майстра. Днює і ночує на заводі начальник одного з цехів Рогожін, і коли в нього запитують про відпочинок, він розповідає: "Ви знаєте, коли відпочиває людина? Коли вона знаходить те, чого шукає".
Це сказано чудесно. Бо все, кого ми бачили на Арсеналі, знаходять заслужений відпочинок після важких, дуже важких років війни у тому, що на руїнах вони швидко будують зовсім нове виробництво вищого класу точності.
У директора на столі лежить рознорядка Наркомату. Уже вироблену продукцію треба розіслати в 49 місць, в Донбас, в карелію, в Естонію, в Молдавію, в такі й такі польові пошти, - хіба це не радість людям, які знайшли після німця в себе в домі тільки руїни? І коли вони згадають, що робить мирний Арсенал таку зброю, яка допомагає змінювати лице нашої землі, шукати нові багатства надр, прокладати нові магістралі і вчитися про який випадок влучно націлювати гармати й танки, - їм стає ще більш радісно.
От тому, коли все це приходить на думку старому ковалеві Михайлові Піорку, він ще сильніше роздмухує вогонь у горні. В творенні нового заводу зарубцьовується його душевна рана...
- А Арсенал справжній, грізний, гарматний! Його хіба немає? - запитає киянин, для якого не більш, ніж звичайне підприємство.
І той Арсенал є. Перебазований киянами, він виріс на іншому місці і жерла його гармат посилали не одну сотню снарядів по німцях. І дуже часто пише звідти син Піорка, благаючи негайно повідомити, що нового в Києві, що робиться в стінах прославленого революцією Київського Арсеналу.
БОРИС ЯМПОЛЬСЬКИЙ |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 10:51:06 AM
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Here is interesting to note the following information. We find the indirect information about the future production of cameras Kiev. "Later another camera would appear that would be the latest word of modern photo cameras and which would successfully compete in quality with "Leitz" and "Contax"".
Here is also mentioned that the war destroyed almost all houses of Arsenal workers and a new Arsenal village is planned for workers. Some workers sleep directly on the territory of Arsenal - in offices and in factory club. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 11:37:02 AM
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НОВЫЙ АРСЕНАЛ
Когда в тревожное лето сорок первого года немецкая угроза нависла над Киевом, приготовившимся к осаде, и на дворы Арсенала подали эшелоны для эвакуации - казалось, не огромный завод покидает свое обжитое гнездо, а старый, бывалый солдат меняет позицию, чтобы удобнее было выбирать цели, вести огонь...
Старые боевики-арсенальцы отнесли в вагон обтянутое чехлом, знаменитое заводское знамя. И на Урале они не осрамили его.
Уехавший завод не вернулся на свое место. Прочно, обеими ногами, врос он в свое новое гнездо. А просторные и высокие киевские цехи Арсенала вновьзаполняют люди. Отныне новая, замечательная продукция мирного времени будет рождаться под этими крышами.
Наша страна из огромного военного лагеря стала лагерем строителей. И всюду, впереди плотников и каменщиков, идет человек с нивелиром и металлической лентой, - без него никто не проложит трассу дороги, не спланирует территорию завода, не выберет места для цехов.
Этот нивелир - простых и сложных систем - всей стране уже дает молодой оптико-механический завод, вырастающий в старых арсенальских стенах, выщербленных пулями. И скоро от этого же завода будут получать - многими десятками тысяч - первоклассные фотоаппараты "ФЭД". До 120 тысяч в год!
Еще недавно в захламленных цехах уныло посвистывал ветер, а уже в апреле первая партия в полсотни нивелиров в изящно отделаных ящиках была сдана заказчикам. Здесь никогда не давали литья под давлением и не обрабатывали стекла с точностью до половины микрона, не штамповали пластмассу и не серебрили оптические призмы. Но все это уже делается на новом Арсенале.
Их пока несколько десятков на заводе - инженеров и мастеров, влюбленных в свою редкую профессию оптиков, они живут в мире предельных точностей, они придирчево проверяют свою ювелирную работу, пока неподкупный солнечный луч, преломившись через стеклянный калибр, не признает шлифовку совершенной.
Они - душа завода. Его директор Константин Смирнов, главный инженер Дмитрий Соболев, главный конструктор Иван Монченко, руководитель производственного отдела Григорий Третьяков, начальники цехов и мастера, - все они как-то сразу сумели привязаться к этим, на первый взгляд слишком просторным, для оптики цехам и всей душой почувствовать, что отныне это их дом - большой дом- киевский гигант оптической механики.
Когда появляется на свет нивелир, двенадцать цехов стоят над его колыбелью, 500 станков вытачивают, шлифуют и полируют его малейшие частицы, две тысячи рук дают ему жизнь и следят, чтобы он был точен до сотой миллиметра. Его части гальванизируют, хромируют, никелируют, окрашивают, - они должны долго и честно служить своим будущим хозяевам.
Оптическим цехом руководит ленинградский оптик Ефим Мозес. Это - святая святых завода, цех волшебных превращений стекла. Оно приходит сюда в виде литых или штампованых кусков с матовой, шершавой поверхностью. и на ваших глазах этот мертвый, тусклый кусок стекла начинает как бы оживать.
Вот он прошел грубую обдирку на маленьком станке шлифовальщицы и уже определились четкие грани призмы или линзы. Из рук в руки передается стекло для будущей призмы, уровня, окуляра, об"ектива, еще точнее становится шлифовка, все чаще прикладывает девушка стеклянный угольник к полуготовой детали, все осторожнее ее движения. И вот уже ловкие и нежные руки Татьяны Мясниковой бережно прижимают хрупкую призмочку к вертящемуся кругу, а нога привычно вращает его. Татьяна выпускает линзу в мир, она полирует ее тончайшие фаски, едва заметными движениями придает ей окончательную точность. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 12:06:07 PM
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The text of this article contradicts in one place to the text of "Peaceful Arsenal" in Radianska Ukraina. It is very interesting text for people who study history of Zeiss factory in Jena.
This text was written in July 1945. Already one month Zeiss factory was under control of Soviet occupation forces. As we know Soviets ordered to increase the production numbers of military and civil optics. The staff of CZJ has grown from 4500 (July 1945) to 6000 (beginning of August 1945) [taken from F. Schomerus "Geschichte des Jenaer Zeisswerkes 1846-1946, Stuttgart 1952, p.302"] The production line in Jena consisted of 12 workshops.
Now we read in the article "The new Arsenal" that Arsenal has finished the first batch of levels and shipped in July 1945 and that the levels are produced in 12 workshops by almost 2000 workers. This information is written in such a way that reader starts to believe that all levels were produced in Arsenal and that this factory has already 2000 workers. But in reality in 1945 there were only few workers on the Arsenal plant (mainly ex-dairymaids) and it seems that they just used to relabel Zeiss products and learned hard how to produce optical elements and cameras. Probably the production of FED Arsenal was thought as a camera for practicing of camera assembly and production before Kiev project started.
But you can see how the propaganda worked that time. The levels from Jena "in beautiful wooden boxes" were officially "produced" in Arsenal by 2000 workers in 12 workshops with piles of dust and fire traces on the walls .
It is worth to mention that the author describes Arsenal workshops as very spacious ("too spacious for optics workshops"). It indicates that initially the production started in old Arsenal building near Kiev-Pechersk Lavra as I've mentioned already in the beginning of this thread. |
Edited by - altix on Sep 12 2015 12:16:14 PM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 12 2015 : 12:51:36 PM
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Попробуйте представить себе угол наклона в 15 секунд! Это нормальная величина, которой оперируют в этом цехе, в цехе почти фантастической точности.
- Я больше на гектары привыкла считать, - улыбается бригадир молодежной бригады Галина Деггар, - а вот теперь научилась новому счету.
И она, и все ее подружки пришли на завод из села. Пытливый ум простых девушек и честные работящие руки помогают им выполнить три нормы на той работе, где одно неловкое движение - и линза идет в брак.
В этом цехе мы познакомились с интересным человеком, старейшим русским изобретателем Виктором Иосифовичем Ивановым. Этот старик с умными, проницательными глазами, налаживал когда-то выпуск первых уровней в России и производство первых точных делений на оптическом стекле. Он приехал сюда из Москвы и вместе со своим учеником инженером Мозесом кропотливо добивается идеального основания уровня.
Он ведет нас к станочку, изобретенному им, - простая и хитроумная машина автоматически шлифует стеклянные трубочки уровней. А еще недавно эта деликатная работа доверялась только человеческим рукам.
Эта влюбленность мастеров оптики в свою профессию, в свое дело помогает им обратить в "свою веру" тех, кто только издали видел нивелир в руках геодезиста и "ФЭД" в руках фотолюбителя. Инженеры-технологи, делавшие пушки, становятся энтузиастами оптики, домашние хозяйки учатся собирать уровни, токари, обдиравшие стволы минометов, вытачивают двумиллиметровые винтики, доярки шлифуют линзы шестикратного увеличения.
Щедрой рукой страна дает киевским оптикам оборудование. Механический цех уже выпускает 300 глухих нивелиров в месяц, а его искуснейшие механики Глуховцев, Арефьев, Иванов, в сотый раз начиная все сначала, в неутомимых поисках совершенства, ставят на производство сложный нивелир - "Кипрегель Большой".
- Сами становитесь на ноги и сами учитесь ходить и постарайтесь это сделать хотя бы втрое скорее, чем ребенок, - так сказали инженерам, посылая их на завод. И возле слесаря-виртуоза Ольховского уже подросло несколько молодых слесарят из колхозных пареньков, и первый из столяров завода Голсанин имеет плеяду своих учеников, и инженер Боган в механическом научил домашнюю хозяйку Ямкову искусству тончайшей сборки нивелиров, и начальник механического Луконин переходит от станка к станку, направляя резец вчерашнего ремесленника...
Новый завод получил в наследство от старого не только пустые коробки цехов, дворы, под"ездные пути и не только немые стены - свидетелей героического восстания. Нет, он получил гораздо большее: в этих стенах незримо витает неукротимый дух арсенальцев, их умение вносить страсть во все - и в жаркий бой, и в досрочное выполнение важного заказа, и в шефство над машинно-тракторной станцией.
......
Ю. АЛЕКСАНДРОВИЧ
I omitted some non-interesting pathetic passages at the end of the article. |
Edited by - altix on Sep 12 2015 12:54:56 PM |
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Vladislav Kern
Vlad
USA
4252 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2015 : 09:31:38 AM
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Hello Altix,
A huge Thank you to you and Alzo for uncovering these documents and posting them here, it took me a while to read through all these at least once, I still need to reread it a few more time, it is a treasure trove of documentation!
From my "inattentive reading" of past 24 hours I do get the impression that this establishes that the cameras FED-Arsenal truly existed, I understood that the production was started there and quickly abandoned in favor of Volga (Kiev)... great material, nothing I can say, except for the fact that it now opens a new chapter - which FED-Arsenal cameras are genuine and which are fakes that were built based on "Rumors" that they existed. .
Thank you again, it's unbelievable that this kind of information can still be found after the fall of USSR...
Best regards,
Vlad. |
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Juhani Halmeenmaki
cedricfan
Finland
1020 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 13 2015 : 09:40:18 AM
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Wow, I am wordless!
Best regards,
Juhani |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2015 : 1:20:03 PM
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Dear Vlad,
thank you for this wonderful resource where we could discuss such thrilling topics. For me the uncovered material supported some my guess about the origin of early optical devices in Arsenal. If you don't mind I would like to share some my thoughts about the early Arsenal theodolites, levels and kippregels. It has nothing to do with FED Arsenal but I believe it deserve to be presented here in the view of uncovered information from the newspapers. These observations can also help you to understand how difficult to determine what is the original Soviet design of the post-war precision optical instruments.
The Arsenal levels are quite rare items and not many of them I was able to spot and investigate. I can distinguish three main types of Arsenal levels.
The first type that I consider the most rare one was probably completely produced and assembled in Arsenal based on German documentation. This is almost one-to-one design of Zeiss Jena Ni IV (1920-1922). In 1945 -48 this design was already obsolete. Why Arsenal produced them? Most probably they were able to assemble it quickly and since levels in post-war country were of immense importance the obsolete design played no role.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_Type1.jpg
I cannot be sure but I think that these levels have similar optical parameters like 20x zoom. One can note that some details in construction of Arsenal level are different from the German one. Note also the presence of plastic elements on arsenal level - a new technology that became familiar to Arsenal workers after the war (according to newspapers).
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Edited by - altix on Sep 14 2015 1:30:53 PM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2015 : 2:21:56 PM
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The second type was state-of-the-art level in 1945. This level we see on the picture of the newspaper
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_p10.jpg
It was called in Arsenal "Nivelir Gluhoy -NG" ("deaf level"). The first article (July 1945) writes that it is planned to produce "NG" while the second (October 1945) already shows a photo. But I doubt that these levels were assembled in Arsenal in 1945. Actually it is almost one-to-one Carl Zeiss Ni B (1945-1946). There are some cosmetic differences but I believe the optical properties are the same for Arsenal and Zeiss levels (improved 31x zoom ). I believe that Arsenal level was actually produced by Zeiss (at least in 1945-46). In 1946 the equipment was brought from Jena to Kiev and probably Arsenal levels 1947 -1953 (?) one can consider as truly Soviet ones produced on Zeiss equipment.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_type2.jpg
After 1946 Zeiss was unable to produce levels for German market due to regulations of occupation forces. It started with a new model only in early fifties.
The difference in design of Zeiss Ni B from Arsenal one can be explained by the fact that Zeiss labeled levels were produced for export to US, England and France occupation zones. That demanded much higher standards of quality. I think Arsenal level is simplified version of Ni B.
Here is the comparison of Soviet and German packaging:
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_type2_1.jpg
Later Arsenal NG levels have plastic parts and were produced probably up to 1957. Some further developments can be traced even in 1962 (NB-3 model).
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Edited by - altix on Sep 14 2015 3:53:26 PM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2015 : 2:57:48 PM
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The third model is very rare. It has 44x zoom. Arsenal level is actually Zeiss Ni A from early forties. These both designs are completely identical. Definitely it was produced on the same equipment.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_type 3.jpg
I acknowledge the site http://www.bau-popp.de/ for pictures and information on Zeiss levels.
Another interesting creature of Arsenal factory is the Arsenal kippregel. In the newspaper from 1945 was mentioned that Arsenal planed to start its production. This device is also extremely hard to spot and it looks fantastic. Actually its design was very obsolete for 1945 -1948 and comes most probably from the end of XIX century! I have found many similarities of Arsenal kippregel with Kern kippregel.
http://www.ussrphoto.com/UserContent/1492015_kippregel.jpg
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 15 2015 : 03:10:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Vlad
From my "inattentive reading" of past 24 hours I do get the impression that this establishes that the cameras FED-Arsenal truly existed....
Strangely enough, but it seemed to me that everyone (of course: everyone, who are interested in this theme ;) knows this fact...
It was a complicated story, there are a lot of interesting details, some things remains a mystery, but this history is not a secret in generally. (Or may be I am wrong: if I have a knowledge, it is not means that everyone has this knowledge too? :(
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Edited by - Zoom on Sep 15 2015 03:13:13 AM |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2015 : 11:22:03 AM
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Wow!
I just come back after a two weeks' absence, and I find this incredible work by altix and alzo. Sure, congratulations are not enough...
No doubt that Fed-Arsenal have existed. And the details which are given lead towards the same conclusion: the remaining parts, tools and plans have been transfered to Kiev, and the Fed-Arsenal cameras can be considered as a training work for Arsenal, just before the "Wega-Kiev".
Two questions, at least (!) remain open.
The variety of these cameras is great. So, very probably, some parts of the original work were not immediately used, and mounted after with Zorki parts. If 150000 cameras a year were planned and we only have half a dozen of them, sure there can be extra parts...
The other question is about the Fed history. By what Krushchev says, I understand that N° 237 (Berdsk?) was unable to reconstruct a production line. But they could have done a mounting work, from the Kharkov parts.
So, we could have a more complex history, where there are three places where Feds can have been made in those years: Kharkov, Berdsk and Kiev. There is too a fourth one which is possible: Krasnogorsk. The Fed 1e are too fine to have been made at Berdsk's. They have the same quality as the Fed-Zorkis. And the Zeiss screw lenses, officially recorded "for Fed", were delivered at KMZ's and mounted on Fed-Zorkis... But it's another story!
Zoom, you say that the existence of Fed-Arsenals is well known? Could you explain, please?
Merci, altix et alzo!
Amitiés. Jacques.
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2015 : 3:33:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
The other question is about the Fed history. By what Krushchev says, I understand that N° 237 (Berdsk?) was unable to reconstruct a production line. But they could have done a mounting work, from the Kharkov parts.
The plant number 237 is "Kazansky optiko-mekhanichesky zavod" -- KOMZ.
Some additional information (but in Russian) you may find there:
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/history/davidov-from-lupe.html (a brief plants' history and an information about numbers)
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/gko-docs.html (decrees of the State Defense Committee -- GKO)
http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html (Khruschev's letter with comments)
quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
Zoom, you say that the existence of Fed-Arsenals is well known?
Yes... These cameras have long been known. As I understand, they were considered as fakes. This is not surprising: the market was swamped with forgeries made in Ukraine (plus Poland). However, it is possible that some "made in Arsenal" FEDs are fakes. Unfortunately, this story is interesting to me only as a part of the KMZ's history. The rest I'm not interested... In particular -- this cameras themselves. From the word "absolutely". ;)
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Edited by - Zoom on Sep 22 2015 3:58:08 PM |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 07:49:15 AM
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Thanks for your confirmation about the genuineness of the Fed-Arsenals, Zoom, even if I am a bit surprised by its delay. Since the time we have discussed of these cameras!
About the n° 237, you confirm it was KOMZ plant? (sorry, I cannot read Russian and the translator is not operative).
Amitiés. Jacques. |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 08:33:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jacques M.
About the n° 237, you confirm it was KOMZ plant?
Yes, it was the future KOMZ. At that time this plant had another publicly name: "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod" (The Volga Optical and Mechanical Plant).
P.S. Need I to explain where Contax cameras must been manufactured? ;) |
Edited by - Zoom on Sep 23 2015 08:39:36 AM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 08:34:06 AM
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Dear Jacques,
it is not a delay but rather copy-paste of the previous contributions from this thread. I am very appreciated Bill Parkinson for his skepticism that forced us to go to archives and find the documents. To my knowledge no documents were shown elsewhere prior this thread that confirm the originality of FED Arsenal.
with best regards
altix |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 08:47:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by altix
To my knowledge no documents were shown elsewhere prior this thread that confirm the originality of FED Arsenal.
A careful reading of the book "Èñòîðèÿ çàâîäà "Àðñåíàë" èìåíè Â.È. Ëåíèíà" (Êèåâ, "Íàóêîâà Äóìêà", 1986)* -- is enough. ;)
But this is not the only source, of course.
*) -- The history of the "Arsenal" plant named by V.I. Lenin. -- Kiev, "Navukova Dumka" publishing, 1986. |
Edited by - Zoom on Sep 23 2015 08:49:42 AM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 09:03:02 AM
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| Yes, this book cites the article from Radianska Ukraina that is given here. This citation alone cannot serve as a proof of Arsenal camera originality since the phrase there "...soon here would appear the camera on which people would search usual trademark FED but would find another - a Kiev one. " is not fully clear. The strong support for FED Arsenal originality is given by Khrushev letter. Above I just pointed out that the letter of Khrushchev to Ustinov on zenitcamera is taken from this thread. |
Edited by - altix on Sep 23 2015 09:05:01 AM |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 10:04:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by altix
Yes, this book cites the article from Radianska Ukraina that is given here. This citation alone cannot serve as a proof of Arsenal camera originality since the phrase there "...soon here would appear the camera on which people would search usual trademark FED but would find another - a Kiev one. " is not fully clear.
Is not fully clear? Not for me... ;)
The Khrushchev's persistent desire to drag manufacture cameras to Kiev was known. FED, Exakta, Contax cameras... This letter is not the only one. It was still appeal to the GKO (not sure what to Stalin). This history as a whole is clear, just some details are unknown...
P.S. Sorry my English...
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Edited by - Zoom on Sep 23 2015 10:06:59 AM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 10:18:00 AM
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quote:
Is not fully clear? Not for me... ;)
this great, Zoom. I think it is easy to understand for people from the territories of former Soviet Union. But I had some private discussions where this quote was not considered as a definite proof (especially taking into account that the book is from 1986). Therefore some additional effort was needed.
It is pity that you joined this discussion late enough.
P.S. the citation of Radianska Ukraina in the book is given with the mistake (wrong datum). |
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 1:10:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by altix
P.S. the citation of Radianska Ukraina in the book is given with the mistake (wrong datum).
You mean the page 337, note #6?
The source: "Ðàäÿíüñêà Óêðà¿íà, 1945, 12 ëèñò" -- what is wrong? The list number 12? |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 1:20:47 PM
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| I need to have a look but as far as i remember it was cited as 12th November and not as 12th October. That misprint caused a problem by first request in archives. |
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 3:08:11 PM
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As I see it, so far, from the information and documents found or now known to us through the forum (thank you, Alzo, Altix, Zoom) :
1. The Khrushchev - Ustinov document states that all the FED parts and manufacturing equipment were sent to Zavod No. 237 (The Volga Optical and Mechanical Plant , future Kazan - KOMZ). And, that No. 237 did not work on the construction of cameras (and so parts and equipment was probably sitting at Kazan between 1941 and 1945).
If true: This may leave Berdsk out of the picture. There may be no ‘FED Berdsk’. Also it would mean that all the FEDs were made at Kharkov before Sept. 1941 (with the exception of some possibly being made by Arsenal in 1945 - 1946) - not some at Berdsk.
2. The Khrushchev document requests Ustinov to order factory No. 237 to transfer of all equipment, devices, incomplete production, and documentation to ‘Ukropromsovet’. Here I have a question, which is:
What is “Ukropromsovet”? Is it the Arsenal Factory, or is it a military or government department?
3. The Khrushchev document also asks Ustinov to assist in the starting of camera production through use of the mentioned optical and control-measuring equipment. Which is listed as:
a) Equipment 23 items (appendix 1)
b) Control-measuring equipment 26 items (appendix 2)
Here, my question (maybe not an important question) is:
What are these items and are “appendix1” and “appendix 2” available to see?
4. The newspaper articles are very interesting but more like propaganda than documentary. It is not clear to me that the articles speak of actual production of a FED at Arsenal, or if possibly the writers are just relaying information from Government officials that there will be new camera production of rangefinder cameras. At the time, the idea that these cameras could be like a Contax was probably not thought of yet, except by the people who were involved in bringing the equipment and parts from Germany, and so it may have been assumed that it would be a “FED” camera that was going to be made.
To me, although the Khrushchev document may clarify a certain question about where the FED parts were during the War and possibly change the ‘Berdsk’ story, it does not authenticate the actual two versions of the FED-Arsenal that we have been discussing. I still have many questions about these specific cameras that can best be answered by careful examination of the parts they are constructed from. If they are made from evacuated parts from Kharkov then the parts should all be consistent with pre-War FED parts. They will not be considered authentic if they are made of mixtures of parts, especially if the engraved rangefinder housings are from later cameras, but the engraving is identical to examples that have pre-War rangefinder housings. Also, between different examples, the vulcanite used must be compared, as well as the indentations on the housings for the rewind lever and other construction and parts details.
As Zoom has said:
“Yes... These cameras have long been known. As I understand, they were considered as fakes. This is not surprising: the market was swamped with forgeries made in Ukraine (plus Poland). However, it is possible that some "made in Arsenal" FEDs are fakes. Unfortunately, this story is interesting to me only as a part of the KMZ's history. The rest I'm not interested... In particular -- this cameras themselves. From the word "absolutely". ;)”
I am not ready to make the leap to authenticity of the FED-Arsenals that we know exist, just because there is documentation that Khrushchev ordered a transfer of parts and equipment and wanted to start camera production in the Ukraine. This is good historical information, but, in my opinion, is not solid proof of the authenticity of either of the versions of “FED-Arsenal” that we have seen.
Regards, Bill
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Zoom
596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 4:04:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
... And, that No. 237 did not work on the construction of cameras (and so parts and equipment was probably sitting at Kazan between 1941 and 1945).
Between November 1942 and 1945... So they in Berdsk had about six months in 1942... ;) I can't say anything, because never interested in these (FED-Berdsk) cameras. May be "yes", may be "no"... But during the war not to the production of cameras.
(Btw. in summer of 1944, FED factory management building fired. All design and technological departments documentation was destroyed.)
quote:
Originally posted by nightphoto
What is “Ukropromsovet”? Is it the Arsenal Factory, or is it a military or government department?
This "Ukropromsovet" (more correct name is: "Ukrpromrada") was an Ukrainian Industrial Cooperatives Union head organization.
See notes on the page http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html
Khrushchev was not an idiot, but his proposals in this letter* were idiotic...
Nevertheless, he achieved his goal. Not quite as planned, but...
*) -- Btw, this letter looks like an order. |
Edited by - Zoom on Sep 23 2015 4:33:50 PM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 9:23:46 PM
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quote:
Khrushchev was not an idiot, but his proposals in this letter* were idiotic...
I am not a great expert to evaluate Khrushchev's level of idiocy or stupidity of his orders. I address you to the nice survey on the topic of Zeiss reparations of Dr. Matthias Uhl in the book "Sowjetische Demontagen in Deutschland 1944-1949. Hintergruende, Ziele und Wirkungen" (Berlin 2002). I translate some parts from this book to make the matters clear. in the following RGAE is the Russian State Archive on Economics. (sorry for my poor translation)
"In September 1944 the State Planing Committee by Council of People Commissariats of USSR asked every People Commissariat to provide the information about the German factories that are interesting for them to be dismantled. In the beginning of 1945 this information was further specified and updated. For every People Commissariat was created the "target lists". (cf. letter of the Head of agricultural-machine building by People Commissariat of Mortars, Hlomov, to the director of production department, Dolozhenko, 13, 11. 1944 in RGAE 7962/1/196; Letter of assistant of director of State Optical Institute (GOI), Vanin, to the chief of 2. Main Administration of NKV, Frejberg, 13.8.1945, in RGAE, 7572/2/1018 )"
"Finally in Moscow was decided which administration departments would obtain factories in Jena. The special committee by Counsel of People Commissariat hand over the firma Carl Zeiss to People Commissariat of Armament immediately after the occupation of Thueringen, i.e. in July 1945 (The letter of Ustinov to Berija, 26.10.1946, in RGAE, 8157/1/1089). This commissariat applied for this factory by State Planing Committee previously (in 1944). Since the People Commissariat for Armament was the main producer of optical goods this decision did not meet any protest of other Commissariats. In this situation, the People Commissar of Armament, Dmitriy Ustinov, asked other Ministries, which were interested in optical production of Zeiss factory, to apply through the 2nd Central Administration of his Commissariat. This administration tried to fulfill all incoming requests. at the same time the applicants were able to have a look on necessary technical documentation and blueprints. (For example the People Commissariat for Shipbuilding obtained from Jena rangefinders, cf. the letter of Head of 2. Central Administration of People Commissariat of Armament, Dobrowolskij, to commissioner of Zeiss factory of people Commissariat of Armament, Nikolaev, 6.10.1945 RGAE 7572/2/1018). In this way all possible concurrence from other ministries was eliminated from the very beginning.
In August 1945 the Committee of 2nd Central Administration inspected the conditions in Jena for dismantlement. In their report they propose to Soviet specialists the following actions:
"a) Organisation of thorough inspection of production in Zess factory and Shott by Soviet scientists, constructors, technologs and specialists within the period not less than 6 months. Afterwards the Zeiss factory must be dismantled.
b)During this period Zeiss and Shott factories in Jena should continue the production of civil optics and optical glass.
Simultaneously in Soviet Union the production and leaving places must be prepared for transported Zeiss factory." (The report of commission of Ministeriums of Armament about Zeiss factory and Shott, 18.8.1945, RGAE, 7572/2/1019 )
...In plans of People Commissariat of Armament in Moscow the idea to transport the whole Zeiss factory to one place was considered as impossible. They decided therefore to split the factory into six Soviet optical factories. The expert commission in Jena was against this proposition. They were afraid that the split of production line into separate pices could badly influence the production quality and that "this can cause the demolition of production that has universal importance". As an alternative the specialists of 2nd Central Administration proposed to empty completely the optical factories Nr 349 in Leningrad and Nr 356 in Sverdlovsk and transport there the machinery from Jena, Saalfeld, Poessneck and Gera. (Report on assignment in Zeiss factory, 18.8.1945 in RGAE 7572/2/1127, In Leningrad was planned to produce measurement-, military- , astro-equipment and microscopes, whereas in Sverdlovsk - Geoequipment and optical lenses. ) Simultaneously expert commission concluded that successful reconstruction of factory in USSR would be possible only in the case when many German specialists would also arrive.
In the beginning of September 1945 the People Commissariat for Armament started the concrete planning of dismantling process. |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 9:53:18 PM
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So, first of all, everything connected with optical production was regulated by Ustinov bureau. That is why Khrushchev wrote the letter to him. I do not consider his letter idiotic. During the war no FED cameras production was started in Kazan as we infer from the letter. I doubt that after the war this production would be organized there. At the same time in destroyed Kiev were people who wanted to assemble optical devices. Why the letter is idiotic?
Since already in February 1945 it was realized that Zeiss factory would be in the Soviet occupation zone it is completely reasonable that its dismantling was only a matter of time. Khrushchev was most probably aware about these plans and started actively prepare the place and workers for the future production. I can only wonder his speed (11 February - end of Yalta conference, 13 February - Khrushchev's letter). FED Arsenal was probably a good idea to teach ex-dairymaids how to assemble cameras.
The statement that Khrushchev decided to bring Zeiss Jena production in Kiev is wrong. The only person who decided was Ustinov. Ustinov (and I assume Berija) were the people who decided to split the factory into 6 parts. Ustinov's subordinate, Dobrovolskiy, thought that the factory should be transported to Leningrad and Sverdlovsk. If Ustinov decided that time to take Dobrovolski's opinion into account, then I would hardly imagine KMZ or optical division in Arsenal.
I do not really understand any mythology connected with Volga camera. To my knowledge there were no definite plans of optical plant construction in Stalingrad. Probably that were dreams of Dobrovolski or Turygin? The later asked to prepare the drawings of a new camera with conventional name "Volga".
The transportation of equipment from Goerz factory in Berlin, Zeiss Ikon factory in Jena, Voightlaender production line in early 1945 to Moscow, Kiev and Leningrad, was also regulated by Ustinov.
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Edited by - altix on Sep 23 2015 10:38:12 PM |
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 23 2015 : 10:32:21 PM
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quote:
Here, my question (maybe not an important question) is:
What are these items and are “appendix1” and “appendix 2” available to see?
I've found that these appendices are not interesting. But I can share them if you really want.
quote:
The newspaper articles are very interesting but more like propaganda than documentary. It is not clear to me that the articles speak of actual production of a FED at Arsenal, or if possibly the writers are just relaying information from Government officials that there will be new camera production of rangefinder cameras. At the time, the idea that these cameras could be like a Contax was probably not thought of yet, except by the people who were involved in bringing the equipment and parts from Germany, and so it may have been assumed that it would be a “FED” camera that was going to be made.
In archives one can find other documentation on FED Arsenal cameras that are more official. There exists a problem to obtain the permission to copy them but interested people can find them and read them directly in the archive. But we are working on getting such a permission to copy.
The mention of Contax camera is connected directly with Contax camera production.In the beginning of October 1945 Zeiss specialists were asked to start Contax camera production for Soviet Union. The article in the newspaper is from 15.10.1945. The director of Arsenal plant knew since August 1945 about the future dismantlement of Zeiss Jena factory and was preparing the place for it. 17.10.1945 Major Turygin ordered blueprints of Contax camera and lenses for the future production in USSR. Note that there is no official name for the camera. Probably for Zeiss workers the conventional name "Volga" is used in blueprints (from 9.11.1945). Kiev logo appeared one year later.
It is worth to note that nobody from Zeiss factory was aware of future dismantlement. In August 1945 one Soviet lieutenant-colonel
said on meeting in Carl Zeiss Jena factory "We have with certain intention completely dismantled Zeiss Ikon in Dresden and Berlin, since we needed the machinery for our serial production in Russia. The situation with Zeiss (Jena) is completely different. The factory should remain in its original place to be able to solve the plethora of tasks, since in this field the factory is unique in the whole world " (Bestand Betriebsarchiv Carl Zeiss Nr 15135).
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596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 12:48:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by altix
So, first of all, everything connected with optical production was regulated by Ustinov bureau. That is why Khrushchev wrote the letter to him. I do not consider his letter idiotic. During the war no FED cameras production was started in Kazan as we infer from the letter. I doubt that after the war this production would be organized there. At the same time in destroyed Kiev were people who wanted to assemble optical devices. Why the letter is idiotic?
I see that you didn't read notes in the page http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html :(
quote:
Originally posted by altix
FED Arsenal was probably a good idea to teach ex-dairymaids how to assemble cameras.
Sorry, no comments... Kiev... an ex-dairymaids...
quote:
Originally posted by altix
The statement that Khrushchev decided to bring Zeiss Jena production in Kiev is wrong. The only person who decided was Ustinov.
Yes, but he can be ordered through GKO. What was done.
quote:
Originally posted by altix
I do not really understand any mythology connected with Volga camera. To my knowledge there were no definite plans of optical plant construction in Stalingrad.
I see that you didn't read notes in the page http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html :(
Btw, a collection center of all documentation, most part of optical instruments and equipment, coming from Germany, was Krasnogorsk.
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Bill Parkinson
nightphoto
USA
1027 Posts
My Collection
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Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 01:03:23 AM
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Thank you for the information. I believe that the story and most details concerning the 'Contax to Kiev' story are well-known and the political relationships are interesting. What I was saying about the propaganda style newspaper articles is that basically they did not know about the Contax - Kiev story at the time the articles were written and so it may have been confusing to the authors of the article when the officials just told them that there was going to be large camera production in Kiev soon. They may have thought that it would be FEDs when in reality the plan was for Contax-like cameras, what we now know as the 'Kiev'. Whether this is the case or not, I believe that the main starting point of this forum subject was: Are the cameras that we know of and call 'FED-Arsenal' (Serial numbers: 00004, 00020, 00067, 00070, 00216, 00222) authentic made by the Arsenal Zavod during immediate post-War times, or are they fakes, made by forgers at a much later time? This is the question.
I agree that the historical facts that are coming to light, or have been known for some time by some, lead to a clear conclusion that camera manufacturing was directed to Arsenal Zavod during this period, and the exact history is very interesting, but so far does not show clearly or prove that either any FED cameras were made at Arsenal or that the cameras we have seen (serial numbers above) are not fakes or forgeries. I will not say that they are fakes, but that they have not been proven to be authentic. To prove they are authentic there will have to be dated photographs showing them with details visible, passports or instruction manuals, or actual documents that describe them in detail from the factory. In addition, the details of construction of the cameras will have to make sense in the constraints of the time period that they were thought to have been made.
I have no doubt that if these cameras are authentic that there will be indisputable proof in one of these forms existing, and that it will eventually show up. Or enough examples that can be examined in detail and be compared will accumulate over time and tell a story. But to try to obtain a consensus of authenticity for these cameras without actual primary documentary proof, or consistent viewable details on a number of examples, is just not possible.
There are many questions still unanswered. For example why are there two models or varieties of logos, each group with a different range of serial numbers. It is okay to guess things like some were given to factory workers and poor workmanship of chroming is due to 'milkmaids' (of course most women in Ukraine were milkmaids during hard times of war and they had to milk the cows, and the women in the photo with theodolites look highly skilled, very intelligent). But two ranges of serial numbers can also mean that the first range is authentic and the second higher range are fakes made in a much higher serial number range so that there would not be two of the same number (why a number of cameras up to 00070 and then none until 00216?). It is a strange numbering and needs an explanation.
So maybe I go on too long (as we can all agree and I am always certain to provide material for controversy) and I appreciate the hard work and good results of the research that has been done, but volume of information alone will not make it be so. It will have to be proven and I hope that real proof about these cameras will come soon. Sometimes it can take a while as we all can see with the evolving story of 'FED Berdsk' and the untold story of TSVVS.
Regards, Bill
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 01:37:19 AM
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quote:
I see that you didn't read notes in the page http://www.zenitcamera.com/archive/misc/letter-snk-ukssr-13021945-552.html :(
Btw, a collection center of all documentation, most part of optical instruments and equipment, coming from Germany, was Krasnogorsk.
Alas, it seems that we speak about two histories that happened in parallel universes. So far on the given link I see only some your thoughts that are doubtful.
I know that during the first stage of dismantling (fall 1945) some documentation on military optics was brought to Krasnogorsk. During the complete dismantling (fall 1946) the documents were transferred to KMZ by specially ordered planes. The documentation from Zeiss Ikon (Dresden) was lost in fire. Krasnogorsk was chosen as the main optical production center much latter than the time I am speaking about. I can give you the exact weight of dismantled equipment and raw materials for every factory in a list. And Krasnogorsk was only one among another factories that are in a list. Say, Krasnogorsk obtained 722 t semi-assembled pieces of production, Leningrad (factory Nr 349) - 1705.95 t, Lytkarino (factory Nr 233) - 3843 t, Kiev - 667.7t. The distribution of machinery among factories was almost equal. Kiev obtained less machinery since it had already some tools brought from Dresden.
I do not understand you when you want to show some superiority of KMZ. Its superiority in some sense appeared in 1948-49. Krasnogorks was the first factory among the others which successfully started its production. The factory tried to use the production discipline of Zeiss factory. It is true. I was always amazed by high quality of early Krasnogorsk products and appreciate your work done on its history but I have different opinion concerning some of your comments and interpretations.
Yes, in Arsenal among few specialists worked ex-dairymaids. There is no wonder since after the war males were rare to find in post-war Kiev. Some people were still on their way back to home. Krasnogork escaped the destiny to be demolished in war fire two times as Kiev was and this is not a reason to put irony here
quote:
Sorry, no comments... Kiev... an ex-dairymaids...
P.S. The complete list of what was transported to what factory and how much you can find here "Short report on the results of dismantling Zeiss and Schott factories in Jena " 2.4.1947 RGAE 7572/2/1129. |
Edited by - altix on Sep 24 2015 01:53:08 AM |
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596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 03:36:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by altix
I do not understand you when you want to show some superiority of KMZ.
I'm not going to claim this. So I don't understand what you don't understand... ;)
Btw.: There is such a thing in the Russian railways: The default city. You see only the ends of the roads, the destinations... But in any case, all railway carriages will pass through this Default center.
quote:
Originally posted by altix
Yes, in Arsenal among few specialists worked ex-dairymaids.
Sorry, but where in Kiev you can find dairymaids? Just logically explain me this point... However, you may not answer. It is not an interesting discussion...
quote:
Originally posted by altix
The complete list of what was transported to what factory and how much you can find here "Short report on the results of dismantling Zeiss and Schott factories in Jena " 2.4.1947 RGAE 7572/2/1129
Thank you! You helped me a lot! |
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Jacques M.
France
2604 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 04:06:31 AM
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To come back to our main discussion, we can think, now, that one or two series of Fed-Arsenal were really made at Arsenal's. I have said "think"! Of course, we don't have any material proof. But thanks to Altix's and Alzo's researches, we know really much more about these years.
There is something which puzzles me too. The history of Fed seems more and more complex. The way from Kharkov to Kharkov, during and after the war, was tortuous. Berdsk, and now Kazan and Kiev: what was the exact role of these places in Fed history? Finally, which camera was mounted or made where?
I had ideas, but I am not sure they are always valid!
Jacques.
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altix
Ukraine
152 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 04:31:17 AM
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Dear Zoom,
quote:
Thank you! You helped me a lot!
if you need these data, please contact me. I can share them with you for your cite.
And dairymaids came from nearest villages. The post-war years were a good chance to stay in the city and I think it was much easily to survive in cities (I think).
If you really have documentary proof that the creation of optical plant in Kazan was planned together with the production of Volga cameras I would be very appreciated for such documents. Say, Peter Hennig writes that Volga is the working name for Contax cameras production in USSR. In the view of available information I have the same opinion.
I agree with Bill that there is a long way to get the whole picture about this period of history and probably many aspects would remain unclear. But it is nice that we discuss the subject and there are a lot of new information and interesting opinions. |
Edited by - altix on Sep 24 2015 04:32:31 AM |
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596 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2015 : 07:37:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by altix
if you need these data, please contact me.
I have already contacted... Here. ;)
You can send them.
quote:
Originally posted by altix
Say, Peter Hennig writes that Volga is the working name for Contax cameras production in USSR.
Yes. http://fotos.cconin.de/ussrphoto/conkie_3.pdf -- for example. Then there is a simple logic: what brand is peculiar to the "Volzhskiy optiko-mekhanicheskiy zavod"? If known that on this new plant was planned to produce cameras...
Do not wait for documents. Many puzzles are solved by an ordinary logic.
P.S.
You read this text: "Éîãî áåðå ó ìàéñòðà ä³â÷èíà, ùî ïðèéøëà íà çàâîä ç êîëãîñïó." and think that:
quote:
Originally posted by altix
And dairymaids came from nearest villages.
You believe on this bla-bla-bla ("she came to the plant from the kolkhoz")? That she was taken to work in a military factory without a passport? There is no logic.
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Edited by - Zoom on Sep 24 2015 07:55:56 AM |
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Fed-Arsenal
